D&D 5E Giving the arcane gish an identity.

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

okay, do we have anything else to bulk up the concept beyond the purely mechanical and ideally theme subclasses around?

I think we've got the core theme down; it's a warrior that trained both body and mind to merge spell and blade. Eldritch Knights are Fighter that have practiced a bit of War Magic (abjuration and evocation), Bladesingers are Wizards that have a bit of Martial Training in order to be both a decent warrior and full wizard. A Stabnerd/Arcane Gish would be a warrior that looked at both of those traditions, said "nah, I can do better", and spent years of their lives honing their body and mind to be able to flawlessly merge spell and weapon.

The subclass could be different traditions/styles of merging spell and blade. I say we take a note from the Bladesinger and Hexblade subclasses, and name some of the subclasses after previous editions' Arcane Gish classes. One can be called the Swordmage, and it would get teleporting abilities and extra prepared spell lists, another can be the Duskblade, and it would get buffs to Spell Striking, and another can be the Battlemage, which could be a 3/4ths caster with some Wizard abilities, like Arcane Recovery. I also think there should be a subclass that leans more into elemental damage types, so either an "Elementalist" or something like "Element Herald" for name would work, and another subclass for an "Antimage" or "Arcane/Eldritch Nullifier" subclass could also be cool. Something like a Death Knight from WoW could also work, getting spells that deal cold and necrotic damage and some necromancy spells.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You could be right there.

What about we assemble a starting list of the archetypes we need and see what that looks like?

My initial thoughts are :

• OD&D Elf race
• 4e Assault Swordmage
• 4e Shielding Swordmage
• Jedi (Knight only? Consular? Sentinel?)
• 3.5e dusk blade
• The Witcher (?)
• Bladesinger (?)
• Githyanki Gish (?)
• Wuxia Sword Saint (?)

What would you add or subtract from that list?

4e Shadow Assassin?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So, this thread has made me reconsider my own Swordmage, and I'm likely going to take them more in a Jedi meets alternate Monk direction. I'm going to sort of rethink the monk and my existing Swordmage, and present a class that does what the Monk might do in a new iteration that tries to keep what makes the monk special while dropping the Orientalism, and replacing that orientalism with more broad esoterica via the mystical-scientific hermeticism that was shared and traded back and forth between Europe and Asia (especially South Asia) and (especially North) Africa over the last couple thousand years.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

One thing people are forgetting is that spellstrike wasn't just a pure damage dealing mechanic. Sure, some options were damage, but many were not. Just making the mechanic '+ elemental damage' takes away half of what it's meant to be.

Giving options for strikes with effects like fear, blinding, paralysed, etc would go a long way to replicate earlier spellstriking gishes.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I think we've got the core theme down; it's a warrior that trained both body and mind to merge spell and blade. Eldritch Knights are Fighter that have practiced a bit of War Magic (abjuration and evocation), Bladesingers are Wizards that have a bit of Martial Training in order to be both a decent warrior and full wizard. A Stabnerd/Arcane Gish would be a warrior that looked at both of those traditions, said "nah, I can do better", and spent years of their lives honing their body and mind to be able to flawlessly merge spell and weapon.

The subclass could be different traditions/styles of merging spell and blade. I say we take a note from the Bladesinger and Hexblade subclasses, and name some of the subclasses after previous editions' Arcane Gish classes. One can be called the Swordmage, and it would get teleporting abilities and extra prepared spell lists, another can be the Duskblade, and it would get buffs to Spell Striking, and another can be the Battlemage, which could be a 3/4ths caster with some Wizard abilities, like Arcane Recovery. I also think there should be a subclass that leans more into elemental damage types, so either an "Elementalist" or something like "Element Herald" for name would work, and another subclass for an "Antimage" or "Arcane/Eldritch Nullifier" subclass could also be cool. Something like a Death Knight from WoW could also work, getting spells that deal cold and necrotic damage and some necromancy spells.

and how does it make them more than EK or blade dancer? we need it to have something more defined more iconic not just have power through generic training.
think the origin story.

One thing people are forgetting is that spellstrike wasn't just a pure damage dealing mechanic. Sure, some options were damage, but many were not. Just making the mechanic '+ elemental damage' takes away half of what it's meant to be.

Giving options for strikes with effects like fear, blinding, paralysed, etc would go a long way to replicate earlier spellstriking gishes.

good idea.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

One thing people are forgetting is that spellstrike wasn't just a pure damage dealing mechanic. Sure, some options were damage, but many were not. Just making the mechanic '+ elemental damage' takes away half of what it's meant to be.

Giving options for strikes with effects like fear, blinding, paralysed, etc would go a long way to replicate earlier spellstriking gishes.

Or, just straight up letting them cast a spell, but instead of its effects coming about as normal, its effects are trapped in a magic weapon they're holding until they hit something/someone with it, and then the spell is released. If you want to blind someone through Spell Strike, trap Blindness/Deafness or Darkness in your magic weapon. If you want to Paralyze them, do Hold Person/Monster. If you want to damage them, put a damaging spell in the weapon. Then you can add a clause that makes it so Spell Striking causes the initial saving throw for the spell to automatically fail (if it has a saving throw), and for its attack rolls to also hit the target you hit (assuming it has attack rolls), in order to give some mechanical incentive to use this feature.

I would also give them the ability to imbue a weapon as magical as a core feature (probably level 1 or 2), but it wouldn't be like Artificers, instead it would just count as magical for the purpose of overcoming damage resistance and immunities.

 

[jmartkdr2]

we need it to have something more defined more iconic not just have power through generic training.

Do we? This is already more defined than most classes in the game, why should the standard be higher?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

and how does it make them more than EK or blade dancer? we need it to have something more defined more iconic not just have power through generic training.
think the origin story.

Why do we? What's the origin story for Rangers? They're just primal-magical hunters that go between the wilderness and civilization. Or Barbarians? Fighters? Rogues? Most of those are just "training origin stories". I don't see any reason to have to give them anything more specific. What sets them apart from EKs and bladesingers is that they see magic and blade as equals that can be merged, and that doing that is harder than just being a fighter that casts some magic or a wizard that swings some swords. Combining magic and weapon is the story for the class, how they do that doesn't need to be that much deeper, IMO.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Or, just straight up letting them cast a spell, but instead of its effects coming about as normal, its effects are trapped in a magic weapon they're holding until they hit something/someone with it, and then the spell is released. If you want to blind someone through Spell Strike, trap Blindness/Deafness or Darkness in your magic weapon. If you want to Paralyze them, do Hold Person/Monster. If you want to damage them, put a damaging spell in the weapon. Then you can add a clause that makes it so Spell Striking causes the initial saving throw for the spell to automatically fail (if it has a saving throw), and for its attack rolls to also hit the target you hit (assuming it has attack rolls).

I would also give them the ability to imbue a weapon as magical as a core feature (probably level 1 or 2), but it wouldn't be like Artificers, instead it would just count as magical for the purpose of overcoming damage resistance and immunities.

The issue is that 5e has redone how spells are categorised. And it's no longer as neat. It used to be touch spells, but most former touch spells no longer are, and most touch spells now are out of combat combat.

There are some spells which absolutely should not be coming out of a weapon.

I personally love how the paladin smite spells have been done. With a bonus action enchanting the weapon, and it discharging on the next hit.

 

[Gadget]

Giving options for strikes with effects like fear, blinding, paralysed, etc would go a long way to replicate earlier spellstriking gishes.

One thing to consider is that 5e has really cut down on conditions and what can bestow them compared to previous editions. This may be a response to the prolifieration of conditions and pain of tracking them from round to round in previous iterations of the game. Sure there is probably a spell that gives out most conditions, but many of them have been toned down or are somewhat of a sacred cow (sleep, hold person, Flesh to Stone). For example, outside of a monk's stunning strike, I can only think of Power Word Stun that gives out the stunned condition (and only for one round guaranteed).