D&D 5E Giving the arcane gish an identity.

[Frozen_Heart]

My philosophy of classes is that they're mechanical tool boxes to build your character with, and the stabnerd is a set of mechanics we don't have yet/exists in shattered piecemeal across the face of the game.

I mean yeah I'd prefer that, but in DnD 5e that's simply not true. Every single class has a description and story which shapes at least some of the characters background. There is no class which just gives you a set of mechanics with no in built description.

Even fighter, rogue, and wizard have some suggestions about who they are and how they got their abilities.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Yes, but we can do better. We can BE better.

 

[ECMO3]

That's rogues. You're thinking of rogues.

A bunch of sad table scraps like half a suite of tactics you can't even use consistently, half a background or adding a dump stat bonus to a few rolls do not competence make.

And this thread exists due to the Eldritch Knight failing to follow through with the promise of the premise.

Rogues are the most versatile characters in the game and my favorite class, but they are not the most competent martials nor really even close to fighters in that regard.

I think most of the people who claim fighters are "dumb jocks" have never tried to play one that isn't. Fighters are the least MAD class. You really only "need" 1 good stat to play a fighter effectively (either strength or dex). This lets you put the rest of the points whereever you want for your theme. For example, If you are going to be playing a Samurai you will probably not be dumping Wisdom.

Also while I am at it an EK can be built to outdamage any other fighter, or probably any other class at most levels (without using any limited use abilities), while also sporting a 23AC. I have never understood or agreed with the arguement that they are not good GISH characters.

 

[ECMO3]

half of those abilities you only get super late game which means that you still will be going attack attack.

The things I mentioned are available at 3rd, 3rd, 3rd 3rd, 7th, 7th, 3rd and that is assuming you don't take superb technique fighting style (available to all fighters) which can actually give you limited-use out of combat buff at 1st level.

 

[ECMO3]

Eldritch Knight is just use regular attacks and spam shield for most of its playthrough. Not really comparable in gameplay to the duskblade/magus/swordmage.

Yeah, if you don't bother to take spells like friends, charm person, silent image, minor illusion, mending, identify, suggestion ........

Also in terms of melee damage it is generally better to use a cantrip as an action for "most of its playthrough". Attacking is only generally a better option from levels 1-2 (before they have any cantrips). After they get cantrips at level 3 using GFB is generally they highest damage option "always available". At level 5-6 it depends on the enemy you are fighting, solo attacking is better, groups the cantrip is better. At level 7+ the cantrip is generally superior in most cases. With some builds that is not the case, especially if you pick up hex through a feat, but with most builds it is.

 

[Tinker-TDC]

Also while I am at it an EK can be built to outdamage any other fighter, or probably any other class at most levels (without using any limited use abilities), while also sporting a 23AC. I have never understood or agreed with the arguement that they are not good GISH characters.

I don't think anyone is saying EK is weak. People aren't saying the Bladesinger is weak either. It just lacks the playstyle people want.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The things I mentioned are available at 3rd, 3rd, 3rd 3rd, 7th, 7th, 3rd and that is assuming you don't take superb technique fighting style (available to all fighters) which can actually give you limited-use out of combat buff at 1st level.

I wasn't aware I was Mind of tempest.

Rogues are the most versatile characters in the game and my favorite class, but they are not the most competent martials nor really even close to fighters in that regard.

Because they can't attack attack? Nevermind sneak attack and having actual tactics, the sort of things that are so difficult for fighters that the tactical fighter build has limited uses of them.

I think most of the people who claim fighters are "dumb jocks" have never tried to play one that isn't. Fighters are the least MAD class. You really only "need" 1 good stat to play a fighter effectively (either strength or dex). This lets you put the rest of the points whereever you want for your theme. For example, If you are going to be playing a Samurai you will probably not be dumping Wisdom.

Yeah, you're not going to need Constitution for anything. just put your stats in a minor boost given to your class as a table scrap. This is why the stabnerd can't be built off the fighter; because the impetous is to keep fighters bad and boring.

Also while I am at it an EK can be built to outdamage any other fighter, or probably any other class at most levels (without using any limited use abilities), while also sporting a 23AC. I have never understood or agreed with the arguement that they are not good GISH characters.

DPS is not the point. DPS is never the point and I suspect DPS is why you think the fighter is fine as is.

But look at the actual discussion of what people want out of the stabnerd and you'll see that it's more about the style than DPS. The EK is a fighter who also casts spells. The stabnerd blends spellwork with combat. Blend not hybrid.

 

[ECMO3]

Because they can't attack attack? Nevermind sneak attack and having actual tactics, the sort of things that are so difficult for fighters that the tactical fighter build has limited uses of them.

Because they can't do as much damage, take as much damage or have as high an AC. A Rogue can optimize himself to be good at one of those things, but at the cost of others.

Yeah, you're not going to need Constitution for anything. just put your stats in a minor boost given to your class as a table scrap. This is why the stabnerd can't be built off the fighter; because the impetous is to keep fighters bad and boring.

Your AC is high enough and hit dice are high enough that you can play with a 10 constitution just fine. Most of the fighters I play using point buy have a 10 or 11 constitution at 1st level, I rarely take an ASI in constitution and they have all played just fine.

Taking the magic initiate feat with shield spell is generally going to be more survivable than taking a constitution ASI. Shield, even cast only once a day will generally save more hps than 2 points of constitiution. It stops one attack which in general against an appropriate CR foe will prevent more than 1hp per level damage. Even false life cast once a day within an hour of battle is worth 2 points of constitution at 6th level.

The reason your fighters are one-dimensional is because you build them to be one-dimensional. If you do that they are going to be outstanding in combat and weak out of combat. A different build would make them good out of combat while still being good or even great in combat.

But look at the actual discussion of what people want out of the stabnerd and you'll see that it's more about the style than DPS. The EK is a fighter who also casts spells. The stabnerd blends spellwork with combat. Blend not hybrid.

Every suggested build I have seen has been way overpowered and far more powerful than any other class (even more than bladesinger which is already OP). When I suggest abilities that limit damage to be more inline with other GISH characters while keeping the "theme" people don't want to do it.

For example allow mixing spells and attacks but limit spells cast in this fashion to affecting no more than 1 enemy and doing a max of 1d8+spell slot level damage (which makes it comparable to but still more powerful than Paladin's smite). The same people who say they want this theme don't want such damage limits on the class. They want to hit with full weapon damage and follow that with a 8d6 fireball damaging all enemies in a 20 feet wide circle instead of hitting with weapon and casting a fireball that only affects one enemy for 4d8.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The same people who say they want this theme don't want such damage limits on the class. They want to hit with full weapon damage and follow that with a 8d6 fireball damaging all enemies in a 20 feet wide circle instead of hitting with weapon and casting a fireball that only affects one enemy for 4d8.

This assertion isn't even on the same planet as this thread.

 

[ECMO3]

This assertion isn't even on the same planet as this thread.

You say you want to "blend spellwork with combat" if that means casting a full leveled action spell on the same turn you attack, that is 2 actions in one turn, and doing it repeatedly while having access to heavy armor and martial weapons it is WAY, WAY overpowered compared to other 5E classes. That is essentially 2 actions on a turn and will far, far eclipses the damage a Paladin can do with smite.

There is math involved here. A 3rd-level spell as part of a melee attack action should be worth 4d8 in 5e. In earlier versions of d&d, without bounded accuracy, doing more than this would not have been as big a deal but in 5E it is.

Now if by blend you just want to be able to do both in the same fight - then just attack one turn and then cast a spell on your next turn. Wouldn't this meet the theme - Attack and then 6 seconds later cast a spell? If this still does not fit the theme, another alternative is to use ready action on your turn to attack right before your next turn. So your reaction attack would come out and then your action would follow immediately. Thematically you could even say your attack is releasing the spell without changing the actual game mechanics and if you miss you could use your action to ready again instead of casting. You can do these things already, they fit the alleged "theme" people claim they are looking for, and they are balanced with the other classes in the game.