D&D 5E Giving the arcane gish an identity.

ECMO3

Hero
a paladin is a divine caster plus it is all melee much like ranger is mostly range we want the in-between.
You can build a ranged Paladin pretty easy; dump strength and boost dex. Paladin gets all the armors so he can go medium or even light armor if he wants to fit the ranged theme.

Frankly there is no more difficulty building a Paladin than any other ranged character. The spells mentioned in the thread I replied to are all (or at least mostly) on the Paladin list and I don't think 5E makes a distinction between Arcane casting and divine casting.
 

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Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
You can build a ranged Paladin pretty easy; dump strength and boost dex. Paladin gets all the armors so he can go medium or even light armor if he wants to fit the ranged theme.

Frankly there is no more difficulty building a Paladin than any other ranged character. The spells mentioned in the thread I replied to are all (or at least mostly) on the Paladin list and I don't think 5E makes a distinction between Arcane casting and divine casting.
Most Smite spells don't work for ranged weapons, and Divine Smite doesn't work, either.
 

I think once a day at 11th level or higher would be ok provided the specific spell to be used was selected and expended ahead of time (at the end of a long rest or as its own independaet action out of combat).

What we are talking about is essentially the equivalent of a contingency spell without using a spell slot, but with one discharge option (the attack). Since a full caster can't do that until 11th level and can never use more than one 6th level slot per LR, this class should also not be available before 11th level and should never be available more than once per long rest.
So: a 6th level spell?
Or do you think a 7th level spell since you feel additional restrictions are necessary?

Even at 11th level this is still very powerful for a half caster IMO.
How is whether a character is a full, caster, half-caster, or martial relevant to the power of one of their abilities at a specific level?

If they are a half-caster and if they stay within the Paladin damage limits per spell slot yes, but I would also suggest they have no cantrips like most other half-casters and nerf the other ribbon abilities since their higher-level feature is so good.
So you think that a class with no extra attack or boosts to cantrips, (so spells are their primary capability) but only access to spells as a half-caster is viable as a combat-focused class?
 

ECMO3

Hero
So: a 6th level spell?
Or do you think a 7th level spell since you feel additional restrictions are necessary?
Contingency is a 6th level spell. I am not sure what you are asking.


How is whether a character is a full, caster, half-caster, or martial relevant to the power of one of their abilities at a specific level?
Because a fuill caster has access to higher-level spells which by its nature makes abilities that allow you to cast a spell more powerful. Being a half caster limits the power of the spells they have at their disposal to do this with.


So you think that a class with no extra attack or boosts to cantrips, (so spells are their primary capability) but only access to spells as a half-caster is viable as a combat-focused class?
If it has the ability to both attack and unleash a full leveled spell every turn? Yes this would not only be viable, it would be the most powerful class in the game.
 

Contingency is a 6th level spell. I am not sure what you are asking.
I am asking what level a spell that deals 8d6 fire damage in a 20ft radius, reflex save for half, and an additional d8+5 physical damage to a single target in the area would be.
It is looking like you would regard such a spell as 6th level, but since you were requiring additional restrictions, I was asking if you thought it should be 7th level instead.

This is not a "how would you replicate this ability using existing abilities" discussion. It is a "how would you rate this new ability" discussion.

Because a fuill caster has access to higher-level spells which by its nature makes abilities that allow you to cast a spell more powerful. Being a half caster limits the power of the spells they have at their disposal to do this with.
Surely that only applies if the half-caster has other abilities that bring their performance up in other ways?
Surely martials, half-casters and full-casters should be capable of the same level of power overall?

If it has the ability to both attack and unleash a full leveled spell every turn? Yes this would not only be viable, it would be the most powerful class in the game.
You're going to have to back that claim up I think.
You are suggesting that casting a Shatter spell alongside a single attack would be more powerful than casting Fireball?
 

ECMO3

Hero
I am asking what level a spell that deals 8d6 fire damage in a 20ft radius, reflex save for half, and an additional d8+5 physical damage to a single target in the area would be.
I would say that is a 5th-level spell. So on a full caster as a stand alone spell, level 9.

If you compare this to other spells:
a 5th level lightning bolt would do about this much to everyone it its area, which is typically smaller than a fireball.
a 5th level fireball would do abou tthis much to everyone in a 20' radius
a 5th level flame strike would do the same as the base damage but to fewer enemies and without getting one for the extra 9.5.
a 5ht level virtiolic sphere would do slightly more to everyone in its area over 2 turns assuming no saves.
a 5ht level cloudkill does substantially less damage per turn but over several turns.
a 5th-level ice storm does substantially less damage.

So I would say that is a 5th-level spell, but I could see how you could argue for 4th level.

But it is important to note, this is a straight up spell attack action where the 1d8+5 is part of the specific spell being cast, not something that is part of something else which is tacked on and combined with any spell. Finally 1d8+5 extra damage is fundamentally different than an extra attack as that can be for a lot more damage and have numerous other riders or effects on it.


This is not a "how would you replicate this ability using existing abilities" discussion. It is a "how would you rate this new ability" discussion.
If you are talking about the ability to combine an attack with a leveled spell I would rate it extremely high, equivalent to a 6th level spell.

Surely that only applies if the half-caster has other abilities that bring their performance up in other ways?
They do though. Martial weapons and heavy armor being the two most obvious ways.

Surely martials, half-casters and full-casters should be capable of the same level of power overall?
I do not think all the classes are the exact same power level in combat. If you include all three pillars sure I would agree with this concept but it would be hard to objectively measure.


You're going to have to back that claim up I think.
You are suggesting that casting a Shatter spell alongside a single attack would be more powerful than casting Fireball?
The game designers have stated that action economy should not be altered and this would disrupt the balance of the game. In the example we are talking about, the class would be the only character in the game that can use both the attack action and the cast a spell action with a leveled spell in the same turn repeatedly. The only other class/subclass that can do this at all (Fighter/EK) can only do it twice per short rest at 17th level (once per SR before this) and is limited to casting one 4th level spell a day at 20th level. Further those who say we need this new Gish are on record saying the EK is not enough for them. You are literally taking the biggest ability that distinguishes the fighter class and replacing it with something that is far, for more powerful and can be used far more often.

Shatter is a strawman, because you aren't limiting this to shatter. Even so, the classes that do allow casting action spells and attacking limit it cantrips, even at 20th level. Casting shatter with an attack is undeniably more powerful than just making an attack or than using bladesinger extra attack, which are what it should be compared to. Similarly war magic only allows an attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip. It does not allow it after a leveled spell. This would by any measure be more powerful than those class features and those classes never get the ability to do what you are talking about, even with a low-level spell like shatter at 20th level.
 
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I would say that is a 5th-level spell. So on a full caster as a stand alone spell, level 9.

If you compare this to other spells:
a 5th level lightning bolt would do about this much to everyone it its area, which is typically smaller than a fireball.
a 5th level fireball would do abou tthis much to everyone in a 20' radius
a 5th level flame strike would do the same as the base damage but to fewer enemies and without getting one for the extra 9.5.
a 5ht level virtiolic sphere would do slightly more to everyone in its area over 2 turns assuming no saves.
a 5ht level cloudkill does substantially less damage per turn but over several turns.
a 5th-level ice storm does substantially less damage.

So I would say that is a 5th-level spell, but I could see how you could argue for 4th level.
OK. So you feel that the ability to do this a couple of times a day would be suitable for a 7th-level full-caster.
What level do you think would be suitable for a class ability with the same effects as the spell would be for a class that is not a full caster to be able to do twice per day?

But it is important to note, this is a straight up spell attack action where the 1d8+5 is part of the specific spell being cast, not something that is part of something else which is tacked on and combined with any spell. Finally 1d8+5 extra damage is fundamentally different than an extra attack as that can be for a lot more damage and have numerous other riders or effects on it.
I'm using the example with fireball to demonstrate that the ability is not excessive, because that is the one you picked out.
Regarding the damage, d8+5 seemed reasonable at that level, particularly since you regard AC so highly. We can say that they drop the shield and deal 2d6+5 if you prefer?
What "other riders or effects" are you worried about?

If you are talking about the ability to combine an attack with a leveled spell I would rate it extremely high, equivalent to a 6th level spell.
OK. Even when applied to a 1st level spell like Chromatic Orb you regard the resulting damage as equivalent to a 6th level spell?
That is actually quite handy because Disintegrate is a also a single-target spell, so we can compare the effects directly.
Does that seem fair?

They do though. Martial weapons and heavy armor being the two most obvious ways.
Interesting.
Aren't martial weapons generally equivalent to about +1 damage, and Heavy armour only 1 or two points of AC?
You feel that those differences balance out the difference between full spell progression and only half progression?

Personally I would have gone for Extra Attack, but I'm extremely interested in why you believe that it is Martial Weapons and Heavy armour that make the difference.

I do not think all the classes are the exact same power level in combat. If you include all three pillars sure I would agree with this concept but it would be hard to objectively measure.
OK. If you want to stick to combat performance, that is fine. - This is a combat ability after all.
Do you believe that full caster classes should be more powerful in combat than half-casters and martials? By roughly how much?

The game designers have stated that action economy should not be altered and this would disrupt the balance of the game. In the example we are talking about, the class would be the only character in the game that can use both the attack action and the cast a spell action with a leveled spell in the same turn repeatedly. The only other class/subclass that can do this at all (Fighter/EK) can only do it twice per short rest at 17th level (once per SR before this) and is limited to casting one 4th level spell a day at 20th level. Further those who say we need this new Gish are on record saying the EK is not enough for them. You are literally taking the biggest ability that distinguishes the fighter class and replacing it with something that is far, for more powerful and can be used far more often.
Don't EKs get Extra Attack, Heavy Armour, Fighting style etc?

Shatter is a strawman, because you aren't limiting this to shatter.
Shatter is the closest 2nd level spell to Fireball that came to mind: both being ranged circular AoE spells.
If you are unaware of the implications of the word that you just used, could you look it up please?
If you are fully aware of the implications, and you did actually intend it as an accusation that I am being dishonest, then could you kindly explain yourself?

Even so, the classes that do allow casting action spells and attacking limit it cantrips, even at 20th level. Casting shatter with an attack is undeniably more powerful than just making an attack or than using bladesinger extra attack, which are what it should be compared to.
Hence the reason for the comparison: At the point at which this subclass would be dealing AoE damage by swinging as part of casting Shatter, the Bladesinger would be dealing AoE with Fireball.

Similarly war magic only allows an attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip. It does not allow it after a leveled spell. This would by any measure be more powerful than those class features and those classes never get the ability to do what you are talking about, even with a low-level spell like shatter at 20th level.
OK. In terms of class performance in combat: why?
 

TheOneGargoyle

Explorer
well, what are the basic archetypes for the subclasses both mechanically and thematically then we work backwards?

That's what I was starting the conversation with the post here

Are you sure this is the thread you meant to post?
If so, what page?

LOL, I'm so sorry! No, not only was that not the thread I meant to post, but I then went MIA on top of it ! :rolleyes:

Ahem, I'll try again. The post I mean to point to was this one:

However, after that, Cap'n Kobold posted this excellent starter here. I think we could surely start with that and iterate on it to get to something awesome.
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
But look at the actual discussion of what people want out of the stabnerd and you'll see that it's more about the style than DPS. The EK is a fighter who also casts spells. The stabnerd blends spellwork with combat. Blend not hybrid.
In the MMO-like usage of the word hybrid, though, a stabnerd must be a hybrid:

They cannot be as good at magic as a full caster, and they cannot be as good at stabbing as a full martial (whatever that might be, but lets just consider fighters and rogues). They may have some elements of each (as, after all, the easiest design method is to give them some spellcasting and a few other ribbon features).

Three attacks is probably out of the question unless the third comes around level 15 or so; but they should also have some sort of magical attack pattern boost around level 11/12.

Subbing out attacks for a cantrip is already an occupied space, unfortunately, so what is left? Adding some elemental damage to an attack or even changing that attack (or all attacks) to a damage type?

The way is to give them a handful of rock features that are magically martial enough to make them feel unique compared to a fighter/wizard, and that they progress well enough at fighting and casting during levels 1-10 that they feel better to play than trying to make a fighter/wizard does in 5e.

The biggest problem is that obvious design features are already spoken for - smiting with spell slots would fit, subbing attacks for cantrips (especially SCAGtrips) would fit, but those were taken.
 

ECMO3

Hero
OK. So you feel that the ability to do this a couple of times a day would be suitable for a 7th-level full-caster.
What level do you think would be suitable for a class ability with the same effects as the spell would be for a class that is not a full caster to be able to do twice per day?
I said I would make it a 5th-level spell. A full caster would have to be 9th level to cast a 5th-level spell two times a day. Further as I have alluded to earlier, a full caster would not have things like heavy armor or martial weapons and it would be a specific spell, it would count against spells known and would not be an extra 9.5 damage to any spell he wanted to cast.

For example, this caster would have in his spellbook a custom spell called "Fireball with enhanced damage to one creature" that spell would be a 5th level spell, it would count against his spells known. He would also have to know a 3rd-level fireball if he wanted to be able to cast a normal fireball. If he wanted an enhanced lighting bolt he would need to know another 5th-level spell known to do it with lightning bolt. This balances the ability by taking away the versatility and tying it to the specific spell in the same manner as the spells you are comparing it against. Arbitrarily adding damage is fundamentally different than adding damage to a specific spell.


I'm using the example with fireball to demonstrate that the ability is not excessive, because that is the one you picked out.
Regarding the damage, d8+5 seemed reasonable at that level, particularly since you regard AC so highly. We can say that they drop the shield and deal 2d6+5 if you prefer?
What "other riders or effects" are you worried about?
An extra 9.5 damage on a fireball is a full 2 levels higher in casting and it is not something that can be combined with another spell.

Mostly I am worried about breaking action economy regularly - allowing two actions on one turn repeatedly.


OK. Even when applied to a 1st level spell like Chromatic Orb you regard the resulting damage as equivalent to a 6th level spell?
That is actually quite handy because Disintegrate is a also a single-target spell, so we can compare the effects directly.
Does that seem fair?
When applied to chromatic orb it outdamages a paladins smite cast with the same slot by a full 33% and when you consider all the variations for different spells it adds far more variety to the effects and delivery. That is OP by quite a bit.

Even magic missile which is a low-damage spell, still does more damage than a 1st level smite does, while doing the best damage type in the game and letting you split it unerringly among up to 3 creatures.

So yes, casting chromatic orb using a 1st-leve spell slot for this is VERY overpowered. If you upped the slot and made it be cast 2 levels higher (use a 3rd-level slot to cast it as a first level spell) it would not be so bad in terms of damage disparity. I still think it would be very powerful because of the sheer variety but would not be op. This would mean with a half-caster you could not do it at all until 9th-level and not be able to do it with a 3rd level spell until 17th-level.


Interesting.
Aren't martial weapons generally equivalent to about +1 damage, and Heavy armour only 1 or two points of AC? You feel that those differences balance out the difference between full spell progression and only half progression?
They more than balance out the differences, because they do not make you choose between dex and strength

To start with your math is incorrect. In melee Martial weapons are worth 2 points of damage for a dex-based character (dagger 2.5 vs Rapier 4.5).

In strength-based melee weapons it is 2.5 damage without a reach advantage (staff vs greatsword) or 1 point with a reach advantage (staff vs glaive/halberd). Note I did not consider a Lance in this discussion because of the limited conditions it can be used effectively. This is a baseline, it gets worse when you consider armor as well.

Heavy Armor is 8 points of AC vs an unarmored character, or 10 with a shield. Further it is always on and does not cost any spell slots. Yes, you can build a high-dexterity character to be close to or even better than that with limited use abilities and spells but you have to invest a ton to do it, especially in dexterity itself, which reduces the variety of weapons you can use for damage and the effectiveness of your spells.

To put a number on this when we are talking about both of these at the same time - investing in dexterity to boost AC means you can't boost strength and can't use a staff effectively. So now you are not comparing a staff to a greatsword any more. Instead you have to go finnesse and now you are comparing a dagger to a greatsword. That is a whopping 4.5 points of damage difference. Boost strength to use a better weapon and your AC is no wear near what it is with plate. The guy with heavy armor gets both of these (high AC and high strength weapons)


Personally I would have gone for Extra Attack, but I'm extremely interested in why you believe that it is Martial Weapons and Heavy armour that make the difference.
See above discussion

OK. If you want to stick to combat performance, that is fine. - This is a combat ability after all.
Do you believe that full caster classes should be more powerful in combat than half-casters and martials? By roughly how much?
In theory no. But the Bladesinger is the most powerful subclass in the game by a substantial margin and we don't need an even better GISH that would be more powerful yet.

In short, they should be equal and that is why you whould not be able to swing a sword and cast an action spell on the same turn.

Don't EKs get Extra Attack, Heavy Armour, Fighting style etc?
Yes and they can not both cast a leveled spell and make an attack as the same action, even at 20th level. Finally they are a third-caster, not a half caster.

Shatter is the closest 2nd level spell to Fireball that came to mind: both being ranged circular AoE spells.
Yes, far more powerful than any other class can do. As I said above classes should be about equal.

Look at what other classes can do in terms of mixing sword and spell and base your build on that if you want it to be equal.
Hence the reason for the comparison: At the point at which this subclass would be dealing AoE damage by swinging as part of casting Shatter, the Bladesinger would be dealing AoE with Fireball.
The bladesinger is not taking 2 actions on his turn to do it, further at the level she gets fireball she can only even attack once per turn.

The bladesinger doesn't have heavy armor, and can use bladesong only 3 times per day at that level to get AC equivalent to this and out of bladesong has to burn spells to get that AC out of bladesong.

The bladesinger has to pump dexterity to keep his AC high, making her spell saving throw lower

The bladesinger only has proficiency in daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows and one other 1-handed melee weapon. She does not even have simple weapon proficiency.

And the bladesinger is the most powerful class in the game. I think this illustrates my point!

OK. In terms of class performance in combat: why?
Because it breaks action economy.

Also as a point - you can effectively do this with a fighter Eldritch Kingth using Action Surge starting at level 3. He can do it once per short rest. He can do it twice at 17th level. He could do the attack-shatter combo you noted at 7th level once per short rest and twice total per day.

Similarly an 11th-level wizard can effectively do this with contingency once a day (twice a day with a day to prepare), burning a sixth level slot and a known spell to do it. Even at level 20 he can't do this more than once per LR.

Why do you think this character should be able to do it more than that? When it takes an EK until level 7 to do shatter/attack and Bladesinger until level 11 (albeit with more powerful options available) - how can you say it is balanced when you want to do this more often than either, and at an earlier level to boot?
 
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