Glove of Storing too powerful?
Voadam
Legend
Doesn't a pouch with coins or spell components inside it count as one item?
I agree with Oni.
I think the most natural interpretation of stasis is that it stops time on the item and that would include spell durations on spells affecting the item.
The argument that as written, stasis means it stops the flow of time for mundane but not magical effects, seems a less natural reading of stasis.
Suppose you have an item being burned away with acid. It gets stored and the acid stops but starts again when the item is brought back.
Should it work any different if the item was targeted by a Melf's acid arrow?
I agree with Oni.
I think the most natural interpretation of stasis is that it stops time on the item and that would include spell durations on spells affecting the item.
The argument that as written, stasis means it stops the flow of time for mundane but not magical effects, seems a less natural reading of stasis.
Suppose you have an item being burned away with acid. It gets stored and the acid stops but starts again when the item is brought back.
Should it work any different if the item was targeted by a Melf's acid arrow?
Artoomis
First Post
Voadam said:
I'd solve that problem by simply not letting the gloves work on the item that has Melf's Acid Arrow still active. Elegant in it's simplicity, no?
And it even fits within the rules (well, not really - it's a stretch). The Gloves are made with the Shrink Item spell, which allows only normal, nonmagical items to be shrunk. Since the Gloves use a wand as an example, I'd allow magic items, but nothing with active spells. Problem gone.
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IceBear
Explorer
I'm not arguing for a difference between mundane and magical items. I'm arguing that time stops for the object stored, not for spells that are acting upon the object.
The object is coated with acid. Well, time stops for the object so the acid cannot hurt it, but if the acid loses it potency in 1d4 rounds, then if the object is stored for 1d4 rounds when it is brought out of the gloves the acid can no longer harm it.
IceBear
The object is coated with acid. Well, time stops for the object so the acid cannot hurt it, but if the acid loses it potency in 1d4 rounds, then if the object is stored for 1d4 rounds when it is brought out of the gloves the acid can no longer harm it.
IceBear
Artoomis
First Post
IceBear:
Your approach, while reasonable on the surface, has many problems that will some up with specific spells.
For example, "Shrink Item." What happens when its duration expires? The shrunk item now is too big to be stored, so you have to make a new rule for what happens.
There may be many other examples that need adjudication.
It's easier just to say that items with spells on them can't be stored. This can give you a sort of poor man's Detect Magic (you can only test for presence or absence of spells on items less than 20 lbs.), but that seems to be not much a benefit.
edit: typos
Your approach, while reasonable on the surface, has many problems that will some up with specific spells.
For example, "Shrink Item." What happens when its duration expires? The shrunk item now is too big to be stored, so you have to make a new rule for what happens.
There may be many other examples that need adjudication.
It's easier just to say that items with spells on them can't be stored. This can give you a sort of poor man's Detect Magic (you can only test for presence or absence of spells on items less than 20 lbs.), but that seems to be not much a benefit.
edit: typos
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IceBear
Explorer
Easy, if it's too big to be stored it reverts to full size and then pops out of the gloves.
Yes, I agree that certain spells may have specific problems, but the impression I have from Temporal Stasis was that it didn't affect spells cast on the person and this is the closest spell to base the effects of this spell from.
If the item cost a lot more money I can see myself leaning more the other way, but not right now.
IceBear
Yes, I agree that certain spells may have specific problems, but the impression I have from Temporal Stasis was that it didn't affect spells cast on the person and this is the closest spell to base the effects of this spell from.
If the item cost a lot more money I can see myself leaning more the other way, but not right now.
IceBear
Oni
First Post
*Sigh*
I think Artoomis summed up what I was trying to say, far better than I did.
As for the burden of proof however, I feel it lay in your court not mine, specifically because spell duration is not singled out in the description of gloves of storing. For me saying the duration of magical changes to the item continue while all other conditions are arrested strikes me more as an exception than something that is expected to be understood. Anyway that is where I am coming from.
Here, I think, is the reference that Mal Malenkirk was referring to.
MotP, page 10, heading time.
"Timeless: On these planes, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. Those effects should be specifically defined for timeless planes. Such conditions as hunger, thirst, and aging might not be affected in a timeless dimension. By the same token, natural healing may be affected, meaning that no wounds heal except by magic. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled."
The last sentence is interesting, and may have some bearing if for no other reason that a good excuse to give your players (i.e. gloves of storing send the item to another plane where magic is not a timeless trait). But I think this gives a good indication of what might happen when magic is removed from the affects of time.
I think Artoomis summed up what I was trying to say, far better than I did.
As for the burden of proof however, I feel it lay in your court not mine, specifically because spell duration is not singled out in the description of gloves of storing. For me saying the duration of magical changes to the item continue while all other conditions are arrested strikes me more as an exception than something that is expected to be understood. Anyway that is where I am coming from.
Here, I think, is the reference that Mal Malenkirk was referring to.
MotP, page 10, heading time.
"Timeless: On these planes, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. Those effects should be specifically defined for timeless planes. Such conditions as hunger, thirst, and aging might not be affected in a timeless dimension. By the same token, natural healing may be affected, meaning that no wounds heal except by magic. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled."
The last sentence is interesting, and may have some bearing if for no other reason that a good excuse to give your players (i.e. gloves of storing send the item to another plane where magic is not a timeless trait). But I think this gives a good indication of what might happen when magic is removed from the affects of time.
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Artoomis
First Post
jontherev said:
Wrong. Shrink Item lasts 1 day/lvl, so eventually the duration will expire, then what? It's easy enough to say it then reappears in your hand, but that's a new rule (you didn't snap your fingers, after all). And what happens if something else is already in your hand? It drops on the ground. I suppose, but that's aother new rule. That's two new rules needed, and that's only for one spell.
Voadam
Legend
Artoomis
Yes, ruling it can't effect the item at all does negate the problem but I also agree with you that that is a house rule loosely based on the prereq spell only. Rings of evasion are made with a jump spell prereq so we know items can do more than their prereq spells.
Also, isn't a normally nonmagical item with a spell cast upon it still considered a "nonmagical item" for the shrink item spell? Doesn't "magical item" mean something made with a craft item feat that xp was spent on?
IceBear
Under your view isn't there a contradiction in that things on the item (acid, fire, mud, spell effects) are shrunk down with the item but not affected by the stasis? The fact that the fire from a lit torch is reduced and put in stasis as well as the wooden torch seems important. The flames do not continue and go out when it has no more burnable fuel. When the torch is pulled out a day later, the flame has not gone out and acts as if it were in the stasis.
Jontherev
If only the object is shrunk down, then are the gloves a quick way to clean things because dirt and mud will not shrink with the item? Is this a way to save an item from alchemist's fire? If an item is on fire is that part of the item but if a nystul's magic aura was on it the fact that the item detects as magic is not part of the item?
Yes, ruling it can't effect the item at all does negate the problem but I also agree with you that that is a house rule loosely based on the prereq spell only. Rings of evasion are made with a jump spell prereq so we know items can do more than their prereq spells.
Also, isn't a normally nonmagical item with a spell cast upon it still considered a "nonmagical item" for the shrink item spell? Doesn't "magical item" mean something made with a craft item feat that xp was spent on?
IceBear
Under your view isn't there a contradiction in that things on the item (acid, fire, mud, spell effects) are shrunk down with the item but not affected by the stasis? The fact that the fire from a lit torch is reduced and put in stasis as well as the wooden torch seems important. The flames do not continue and go out when it has no more burnable fuel. When the torch is pulled out a day later, the flame has not gone out and acts as if it were in the stasis.
Jontherev
If only the object is shrunk down, then are the gloves a quick way to clean things because dirt and mud will not shrink with the item? Is this a way to save an item from alchemist's fire? If an item is on fire is that part of the item but if a nystul's magic aura was on it the fact that the item detects as magic is not part of the item?
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