Glove of Storing too powerful?
- Thread starter James McMurray
- Start date
Artoomis
First Post
Galfridus said:
True, but nowhere is this defined in game terms.
It could mean "stasis" as in time stops for whatever it is, even if a magical spell. One would think it does not mean this since "Temporal Statis," a 9th level spell, is not required to create the gloves.
It could mean "stasis" as in mundane objects are preserved just as they were shrunk, even a lit torch. Spells should run out as normal (with duration unaffected).
Oni
First Post
First of all Xahn'Tyr, there is no need for insults. I apologise if I came across as condescending, it was not my attention. Now to the business at hand.
I was not trying to say that the rules as written (if you consider me to be right) are necessarily good ones. The gloves probably should be more expensive, or should have some eratta attached to them stating what may not be done with them, so yes I do think they are unbalancing, I would do something about it if I were DMing as well. For me this is not about exploiting some loophole, this is about understanding the exact nature of the situation so that I can better deal with it when if I have to. I do however believe that strictly looking at the rules that we have that my interpretation is the most correct, and I think it is good to understand how the rules come across when it comes time to revise them be that with eratta or a new edition.
"Many owners of gloves of storing find them to be useful and dramatic ways to store weapons, wands, and-because the item is stored in stasis-even lit torches."
Here we have the real bone of contention. First, nowhere in this line is there anything that even hints at the idea that all aspects of said item are arrested EXCEPT spell durations. It does however go out of its way to mention that not only can items be stored in the glove, BUT above and beyond that they are stored in stasis. Since it is not defined in the lexicon of game terms, perhaps turning to what the word actually means is a good step to take.
From Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.
Main Entry: sta·sis
Pronunciation: 'stA-s&s, 'sta-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural sta·ses /'stA-"sEz, 'sta-/
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek, act or condition of standing, stopping, from histasthai to stand -- more at STAND
Date: 1745
1 : a slowing or stoppage of the normal flow of a bodily fluid or semifluid: as a : slowing of the current of circulating blood b : reduced motility of the intestines with retention of feces
2 : a state of static balance or equilibrium : STAGNATION
Well obviously the first definition isn't what we're looking for as most items don't have bodily fluids and the like, so lets look at definition two. Well static balance isn't quite what we're looking for, nor is equilibrium, but lets have a closer look at stagnation maybe there is something there.
Main Entry: stag·nate
Pronunciation: 'stag-"nAt
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): stag·nat·ed; stag·nat·ing
Etymology: Latin stagnatus, past participle of stagnare, from stagnum body of standing water
Date: 1669
: to become or remain stagnant
Hurm, don't you just love how dictionaries are put together, well lets take a look at stagnant then.
Main Entry: stag·nant
Pronunciation: 'stag-n&nt
Function: adjective
Date: 1666
1 a : not flowing in a current or stream <stagnant water> b : STALE <long disuse had made the air stagnant and foul -- Bram Stoker>
2 : not advancing or developing
Well again definition one doesn't apply, but definition two certainly does. Now I know real world, game world, but we have a language for a reason and that is to communicate and looking at the gloves of storing as they are written, that is what they communicate.
Now let me go for a more rulesy approach. Temporal Stasis seems to be the spell that is most often referenced with gloves of storing so lets examine that some.
PHB, page 265, under Temporal Stasis,
"You place the subject into a state of suspended animation. For the creature, time ceases to flow and its condition becomes fixed. The creature does not grow older. Its body functions virtually cease, and no force or effect can harm it."
The condition becomes fixed, well that might not necessarily be applied to magic after all. Lets look at Melf's Acid Arrow, well that should affect the affected creature, it is not part of the condition of the creature, nor can it harm them anyway, one can imagine the spell running its course harmlessly after the casting of temporal stasis. However if you look at something like Polymorph Self thats a bit different as that actually affects the condition of the target, and so would be preserved with Temporal Stasis. Now take Greater MagicWeapon, that actually affects the status of the weapon, its a change in its condition, so perhaps it make sense. In fact I wold pretty much say that just about any transmutation spell would be suspended (though I woldn't rule out some spells from other schools).
"Transmutations spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition." (PHB, pg158).
To sum up. I firmly believe that the gloves of storing work as I describe when you consider the information that we are given to work with. However I would agree that is something that is in need of a fix or clarification or what have you. As I said before I'm not trying to insult anyone, or put anyone down, and I apologise if I come across as doing so. I'm not trying to exploit anything even, I just like to now exactly how they work before I start tinkering with things.
I was not trying to say that the rules as written (if you consider me to be right) are necessarily good ones. The gloves probably should be more expensive, or should have some eratta attached to them stating what may not be done with them, so yes I do think they are unbalancing, I would do something about it if I were DMing as well. For me this is not about exploiting some loophole, this is about understanding the exact nature of the situation so that I can better deal with it when if I have to. I do however believe that strictly looking at the rules that we have that my interpretation is the most correct, and I think it is good to understand how the rules come across when it comes time to revise them be that with eratta or a new edition.
"Many owners of gloves of storing find them to be useful and dramatic ways to store weapons, wands, and-because the item is stored in stasis-even lit torches."
Here we have the real bone of contention. First, nowhere in this line is there anything that even hints at the idea that all aspects of said item are arrested EXCEPT spell durations. It does however go out of its way to mention that not only can items be stored in the glove, BUT above and beyond that they are stored in stasis. Since it is not defined in the lexicon of game terms, perhaps turning to what the word actually means is a good step to take.
From Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.
Main Entry: sta·sis
Pronunciation: 'stA-s&s, 'sta-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural sta·ses /'stA-"sEz, 'sta-/
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek, act or condition of standing, stopping, from histasthai to stand -- more at STAND
Date: 1745
1 : a slowing or stoppage of the normal flow of a bodily fluid or semifluid: as a : slowing of the current of circulating blood b : reduced motility of the intestines with retention of feces
2 : a state of static balance or equilibrium : STAGNATION
Well obviously the first definition isn't what we're looking for as most items don't have bodily fluids and the like, so lets look at definition two. Well static balance isn't quite what we're looking for, nor is equilibrium, but lets have a closer look at stagnation maybe there is something there.
Main Entry: stag·nate
Pronunciation: 'stag-"nAt
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): stag·nat·ed; stag·nat·ing
Etymology: Latin stagnatus, past participle of stagnare, from stagnum body of standing water
Date: 1669
: to become or remain stagnant
Hurm, don't you just love how dictionaries are put together, well lets take a look at stagnant then.
Main Entry: stag·nant
Pronunciation: 'stag-n&nt
Function: adjective
Date: 1666
1 a : not flowing in a current or stream <stagnant water> b : STALE <long disuse had made the air stagnant and foul -- Bram Stoker>
2 : not advancing or developing
Well again definition one doesn't apply, but definition two certainly does. Now I know real world, game world, but we have a language for a reason and that is to communicate and looking at the gloves of storing as they are written, that is what they communicate.
Now let me go for a more rulesy approach. Temporal Stasis seems to be the spell that is most often referenced with gloves of storing so lets examine that some.
PHB, page 265, under Temporal Stasis,
"You place the subject into a state of suspended animation. For the creature, time ceases to flow and its condition becomes fixed. The creature does not grow older. Its body functions virtually cease, and no force or effect can harm it."
The condition becomes fixed, well that might not necessarily be applied to magic after all. Lets look at Melf's Acid Arrow, well that should affect the affected creature, it is not part of the condition of the creature, nor can it harm them anyway, one can imagine the spell running its course harmlessly after the casting of temporal stasis. However if you look at something like Polymorph Self thats a bit different as that actually affects the condition of the target, and so would be preserved with Temporal Stasis. Now take Greater MagicWeapon, that actually affects the status of the weapon, its a change in its condition, so perhaps it make sense. In fact I wold pretty much say that just about any transmutation spell would be suspended (though I woldn't rule out some spells from other schools).
"Transmutations spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition." (PHB, pg158).
To sum up. I firmly believe that the gloves of storing work as I describe when you consider the information that we are given to work with. However I would agree that is something that is in need of a fix or clarification or what have you. As I said before I'm not trying to insult anyone, or put anyone down, and I apologise if I come across as doing so. I'm not trying to exploit anything even, I just like to now exactly how they work before I start tinkering with things.
IceBear
Explorer
Oni, I don't think the argument is with stasis means, but with what stasis applies to. Basically, are the spells on an object placed in stasis considered to be that object?
I personally do not think that spells cast on a person or object are necessarily considered to be part of that object or person (there may be exceptions, but I think that is what was intended in general). Thus, a burning torch put into stasis is cannot be damaged by the fire, and thus it will continue to burn once pulled out of the gloves. The spell effects, in my mind, would continue to run.
It really depends on your opinon, I think, on how you would rule. Since they never state anything about spell durations, and it seems to be overpowered if you allow it to include spell durations, I'm not going to allow it to affect spell durations.
IceBear
I personally do not think that spells cast on a person or object are necessarily considered to be part of that object or person (there may be exceptions, but I think that is what was intended in general). Thus, a burning torch put into stasis is cannot be damaged by the fire, and thus it will continue to burn once pulled out of the gloves. The spell effects, in my mind, would continue to run.
It really depends on your opinon, I think, on how you would rule. Since they never state anything about spell durations, and it seems to be overpowered if you allow it to include spell durations, I'm not going to allow it to affect spell durations.
IceBear
Oni said:
The problem is that I think the burden of proof is on your argument, not ours. The fact that spell duration stoppage is not mentioned in the item's description really hurts your argument and helps ours imo. You have made a ruling on the definition of stasis, and that's fine. However, if you'll notice (and I don't mean this in an egotistical way), most everyone else in this thread disagrees with your interpretation. A lit torch is not a spell. Email the Sage for clarification, but as it stands you have a consensus of opinions from experienced gamers and most of us appear to disagree with you fwiw.
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
In some planes, time stop without altering spell duration.
(Where is my MotP when I need it?).
For example I think that in the astral plane you stop aging. Your spells do not last forever, however.
(Where is my MotP when I need it?).
For example I think that in the astral plane you stop aging. Your spells do not last forever, however.
Artoomis
First Post
Fisrt- Oni, could you make your "Grinning Oni" much smaller (about 1/4 its size)? I find it is so large as to be annoying, and it may have a slowdown effect on the boards because it is loaded in so many posts. Perhaps if no one else feels that way, you can just ignore my comments.
On to the matter at hand.
I think this is going in my rules guide.
Question: What effect do Gloves of Storing have on on-going spells? (Can you cast Keen on a weapon and then store it for later use with the spell still active?)
My Best Advice: The simplest solution is to allow no item to be stored with the glove if it has any kind of temporary spell effect cast on it.
Rules:
Glove of Storing
This device is a simple leather glove. On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in one hand. With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A glove can only store one item at a time. The item is held in stasis and shrunk down so small within the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. Many owners of gloves of storing find them to be useful and dramatic ways to store weapons, wands, and-because the item is stored in stasis-even lit torches. If the effect is suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. Although it is handy to have two of these gloves, the creation process yields only one.
Caster Level: 6th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, shrink item; Market Price: 2,200 gp; Weight: -.
"Shrink Item" works on nonmagical items only.
"Temporal Stasis" is a 9th level spell, and applies to creatures only.
Argument For: This item is clearly not meant to work in such a way as to make spell duration virtually infinite (cast a "Keen" spell and then store the weapon until needed, for example). However, since a wand is listed as an example item, it is also clearly not meant to be limited to mundane items only as the Shrink Item spell. My solution is a very reasonable way to avoid the problem all together.
Argument Against: What part of "Stasis" don't you understand? It may be powerful, but that's what the text says, and it just doesn't get much clearer than that.
On to the matter at hand.
I think this is going in my rules guide.
Question: What effect do Gloves of Storing have on on-going spells? (Can you cast Keen on a weapon and then store it for later use with the spell still active?)
My Best Advice: The simplest solution is to allow no item to be stored with the glove if it has any kind of temporary spell effect cast on it.
Rules:
Glove of Storing
This device is a simple leather glove. On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in one hand. With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A glove can only store one item at a time. The item is held in stasis and shrunk down so small within the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. Many owners of gloves of storing find them to be useful and dramatic ways to store weapons, wands, and-because the item is stored in stasis-even lit torches. If the effect is suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. Although it is handy to have two of these gloves, the creation process yields only one.
Caster Level: 6th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, shrink item; Market Price: 2,200 gp; Weight: -.
"Shrink Item" works on nonmagical items only.
"Temporal Stasis" is a 9th level spell, and applies to creatures only.
Argument For: This item is clearly not meant to work in such a way as to make spell duration virtually infinite (cast a "Keen" spell and then store the weapon until needed, for example). However, since a wand is listed as an example item, it is also clearly not meant to be limited to mundane items only as the Shrink Item spell. My solution is a very reasonable way to avoid the problem all together.
Argument Against: What part of "Stasis" don't you understand? It may be powerful, but that's what the text says, and it just doesn't get much clearer than that.
Ok Oni, I apologize. That whole "letter of the rules" without providing a quote thing is just a pet peeve of mine (right up there with "sure you can do that; you can make whatever house rules you want."). Too often is it used to try and shut down the opposition without providing a real argument.
Honestly, if these gloves cost 100,000gp I would agree with Oni on their behavior. But I think that the price tag is a vaild piece of evidence when trying to guess how an item is supposed to function when real rules are missing. Since the wording can be read either way, I think that the trivial price tag is enough to decide the issue for now.
But if I had never seen the cost, I would probably say that spell durations are suspended. It is the simplest solution, just not the most balanced.
And as for all these quivers, and pixies in boxes; the gloves store one object. A pixie in a box is one pixie plus one box; which totals two items. They ain't both goin in the glove! Now maybe if you superglued the pixie to the inside of the box at the molecular level...
Honestly, if these gloves cost 100,000gp I would agree with Oni on their behavior. But I think that the price tag is a vaild piece of evidence when trying to guess how an item is supposed to function when real rules are missing. Since the wording can be read either way, I think that the trivial price tag is enough to decide the issue for now.
But if I had never seen the cost, I would probably say that spell durations are suspended. It is the simplest solution, just not the most balanced.
And as for all these quivers, and pixies in boxes; the gloves store one object. A pixie in a box is one pixie plus one box; which totals two items. They ain't both goin in the glove! Now maybe if you superglued the pixie to the inside of the box at the molecular level...
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