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Go to Hell. Go Directly to Hell. Do Not Pass Go. Do Not Collect 200 Larvae.

Storm Raven

First Post
Dr. Awkward said:
One thing I've never really understood is, if the devils got thrown out of heaven, and launched into hell, why do they hate humanity so much? In Dante, it's because humanity doesn't know what they're missing, but I don't see any reason why the devils wouldn't want to establish their own paradise, under their own rules...which must have been the impetus to revolt in the first place. So you'd think they'd come across like time-share salesmen, rather than wicked tempters. They'd want to offer "all the fun and pleasure you'd expect from eternal paradise, with none of the starchy rules! It's like Club Med without the hangovers!" And then once they've got the bulk of humanity having a grand ole time in "hell", wondering why they ever considered following the rules that would get them into heaven, the devils could spend eternity gloating over their victory of ideals.

Humanity isn't a foe to torment for failure to serve the enemy's purposes, but rather a neutral party that exists only to provide bragging rights to the side who can claim the larger group of supporters. Humanity tests the ideals that the two opposing philosophies espouse, and whoever gets the lions share of humanity also gets the right to claim that their philosophy was obviously the better one.

But you are not twisted and evil beyond recognition. Your desries, and thus your plans and plots, are tainted by your human traits: mercy, forgiveness, pity, a sense of justice, and so on. Demons (or devils) don't necessarily share these traits. They are filled with envy, greed, wrath and the various other sins, to the exclusion of the various "good" traits.

One reason might be jealousy. For example, the demons in Milton are denied the presence of God, but humans live in paradise, and may ascend to Heaven. Envious of humanity's status, the demons decide to try to make humanity share their misery. Lacking the humility to see that their exile is their own fault, the demons turn against others they perceive as lesser beings who somehow share in God's graces that they, even though they are greater beings, are denied.

Another reason could be a desire to dominate: perhaps the rebellious angels did so out of a desire to rule, and thus they seek to dominate those less powerful than themselves, bargaining temporary earthly power for the souls of those short-sighted enough to make such a bargain. Perhaps they lust for blood and destruction, and just want to cause misery, or get satisfaction and pleasure from seeing others in torment. We don't even have to deal with the idea of metaphysical entities to find those who have such feelings.
 

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IcyCool

First Post
BiggusGeekus said:
That is so not worth second base.

Think of the poor Succubus. Everyone she sleeps with has a serious case of coyote ugly in the morning. It's enough to make her swear a vow of celibacy.

Hey wait ....

;)
 

Ryltar

First Post
back on topic: For an interesting vision of how hell could look like, I highly recommend Steven Brust's "To Reign In Hell". It's one of my personal favorites.

back off topic: what happens to incubi dating succubi? ;)
 

Warrior Poet

Explorer
For another great look at different visions of hell, and the hierarchy within, check out Sepulchrave II's story hour over in the forum of the same name. In addition to being a really interesting cosmology, it's also one of the best stories I've ever read.

Warrior Poet
 


Kanegrundar

Explorer
Warrior Poet said:
For another great look at different visions of hell, and the hierarchy within, check out Sepulchrave II's story hour over in the forum of the same name. In addition to being a really interesting cosmology, it's also one of the best stories I've ever read.

Warrior Poet
I have to second this. This is the absolute best story hour I've read. I can't wait for another update!

Kane
 

Dakkareth

First Post
First off, I love the thread title :D.

Ryltar said:
back off topic: what happens to incubi dating succubi? ;)

They are like family, aren't they? So ... :confused:

Anyway, a view that I found very interesting is the one described Peter F. Hamiltons Armageddon Cyclus (or whatever the English title is). Basically there is no such thing as hell. Once you die, your soul leaves for another, strange dimension without any concept of space. Everyone exists as a jumble of recollections, memories, feelings and thoughts mixed through with everyone else, but still very much an individual, though without ANY kind of privacy even in your own mind. But the real problem is the utter deprivation of any sensation. It is literally a place, where none of your senses work at all - which in itself is alone to drive anyone mad. Even worse, there IS a certain amount of information flowing in from the world of the living, just enough to acutely show the dead, what they're missing: All bodily perceptions, all the beauty of the world, all the pleasures of existance. So the poor souls trapped there only have each others' dim memories to steal, to cannibalize, to rape. And all that until entropy finally after a few millenia breaks down the energy pattern of your soul to nothing. Having fun?

It's not hell for everybody, though. There ARE possibilities to leave this prison of nothingness, but they are uncertain, different from anything remotely tied to the natural world. What none of those trapped understands is, that in truth THIS is the way to transcendance, into a higher or merely different plane of existance. Thus 'enlightened' individuals, people without fear to explore new things, or simply believing in something, CAN go on. It's only the insane, the sociopathic, the utterly wicked and of course most of all the losers, who stay trapped, imprisoned by their fear of continuing into uncertainty.
 

Rackhir

Explorer
The name of Peter Hamilton's overall series was "The Reality Dysfunction".

If you sift through "Tales of Wyre - Sepulchrave II's story hour", there is a fair amount of information on hell in his campaign and the role of demons and devils in it. Extremely well writen and thought provoking. Especially on the topic of "If God is all powerful, then what exactly is the roll of evil/hell/etc in the universe/why do they exist.

I found the Cenobites interesting because they seemed to be very alien in some fashion. Their indifference to suffering was far scarier to me than the overblown blood lust of someone like Freddie. There was a comic series based on the novella "The Hellbound Heart", which formed the basis for the movie. I believe you can find collections of the issues at your usual comic/book stores.
One little tid bit that I found interesting from the novella, was that the puzzle boxes weren't the only sort of item/device/challenge out there and that different kinds of puzzles could open other doorways. We are talking about perhaps word games, architectural oddities or thought experiments ANY kind of puzzle. Some interesting possibilities to spring on players with that.


In Pratche's #$%#$Eric, the souls in hell aren't really suffering, because they don't have any bodies to suffer with and people only feel pain because they expect to.

Re: Faust - Didn't Mephistopheles also famously reply to Faust "Why this is Hell, nor am I out of it".

Being in Hell - Let's face it there are far more ways to make people suffer than to please them. There are an infinite number of ways to make people suffer.
 

Gothmog

First Post
Kemrain said:
A lot of very different ideas. Hell as a place of suffering, as a place of pennance, it's very interesting to see what people think. I'd love to see more answers, and especially mroe answerd about my other question. What are the inhabitants of Hell like? People are focusing on the place, and generally not going into terrible detail about Demons, while both are the point f the thread.

I'll answer your question of what Hell and demons are in my campaign, and why demons have such a hatred for humanity and wish to corrupt them.

In my campain, demons (I lump demons, devils, and daemons into the same category) are the aborted and twisted first progeny of two mysterious beings named Ishu and Marut. Before Ishu birthed the demons, she came into contact with "something" that caused them to be deformed and twisted mockeries of what they should have been. The demons were cruel, selfish, and preyed upon each other, siphoning and consuming each other's souls and spiritual energy for their own purposes. Ishu and Marut were so horrified by their children and their twisted powers over their own souls that they banished them to another realm, which mortals call "Hell". However, since the demons are direct progeny of cosmic beings, they have the power of deities, and can shape and control their environment as they please, so Hell appears as whatever the controlling demon of the area wishes it to be like. Demons are also masters of soulcrafting, or modifying and utilizing spirutal energy, and as such are formless beings. In order to take physical form, the demon must expend tremendous energy to manifest a body, or possess an already living host (rarely they animate the bodies of the dead). Some areas of Hell are beautiful scenic woodlands, others are plains of ash littered with scorched bodies. Just depends on the individual demon's preferences. None of this information is known by ANY human or god- demons predate the gods, and Hell is not someplace you can travel to before death (well, you can go there before death if a demon takes you there, but you WON'T ever come back)- so no spells or gates can allow you to plane hop.

The gods of my campaign world are also children of Ishu and Marut, but ones that didn't come into contact with whatever the demons did. However, something else drew Ishu and Marut's attention, and they left the unborn gods with another being named Chronon, who would act as a teacher and mentor for them, but let them live their existences as they saw fit and not interefere, simply watch them. Over time the gods began to awaken, and took an active interest in the world that Ishu and Marut had created, becoming masters of the elements, nature, animals, and the heavens. However, the passions of their parents were still within them, and they desired to create life of their own- sentient life.

However, the gods had no idea how to create life, although they were masters of altering life and the world. During this time is when the gods first became aware of the demons. The demons did not know the gods were also childern of Ishu and Marut (whom they hated for abandoning them and locking them away), nor did the gods know anything of the demons. For a time, the two groups coexisted peacefully, sharing knowledge and power, and the gods helped to weaken the boundaries between Hell and the physical world. The demons were masters of soulcrafting- modifying spiritual energies and reforming them for other purposes and uses. Together with the gods mastery over form, the demons and gods were able to create sentient life- humans. During the creation of humans though, the gods, jealous of the spiritual abilities of the demons, infused some of their divine power in every human, such that as humans multiplied and paid spiritual tribute to the gods, the gods could reap the rewards of faith and enhance their own power. The demons did not notice this until humans began to multiply and worship the gods as their creators. When some demons tried to establish cults devoted to their worship, they could not draw the spiritual energy from humans as the gods did, and they became enraged. However, demons could infuse some of their power into a human, often in exchange for services or souls- the practice of diabolism.

A war between the gods and demons followed, with humans caught in the middle. The world was ravaged by their battles, and humanity was nearly driven to extinction. When it seemed as if total annihilation was inevitable, Ishu and Marut returned, and commanded the war to cease. Chronon reported to Ishu and Marut what he had observed, and a decision was made: the gods would forever be physically banished from the world for their arrogance, deceit and freeing the infernal hosts, and would only be able to affect it through their proxies holding a spark of divine power- the humans. The demons were banished back to Hell, but because the boundaries of Hell were weakened, they could enter the world via invitation or spell, and once in the world could conduct themselves as they pleased, but they were also susceptible to commands from mortals that knew the proper holy words or rituals to bind them. This command, known as the Divine Mandate is still in effect today, with violations of it being punished harshly with annihilation of the offending party. The gods and demons are also prohibited from telling mortals of the Divine Compact. After proclaiming this, Ishu and Marut again left, and have not been seen or heard from since then.

Humans, as a whole, have no idea about any of this. They believe (through oral and written history, divination spells, and mythology) that the gods created them, and the demons are ancient adversaries bent on the destruction of humanity. They know that the gods are distant and never involve themselves directly in worldy matters, but they do occasionally send divine servitors as messengers to their faithful. Humans truly believe that the gods are their benefactors, caretakers, and dutifully watch over their children. While some gods do feel love or affection for some humans, the truth is that to the gods, humans are a resource to be reaped for faith and spiritual power, and this is the primary reason the gods are protective of humanity. This has expanded the gods power immensely in the millenia since the Divine Mandate, and gives them an advantage over the demons. However, because the gods do not have power over the creation or control of souls, they cannot bring back the dead, and the faithful who die and go to be with their respective deity will forever be bound to that god, never changing or growing. The demons, on the other hand, see humans as flawed creations and abominations that must be destroyed and their souls reclaimed by diabolic forces, so they can eventually make a counterattack on the gods and destroy them. By promoting corruption and undermining faith, the demons strengthen their own powerbase, as any soul unclaimed by a god as one of its faithful when it dies goes to Hell. Oddly enough, some demons seem somewhat affectionate towards some humans, looking at them as wayward children, and try to re-direct them back to their side via promises of power, pleasure, and an easier life. These individuals, known as diabolists, possess great power and are tasked by their demonic masters to undermine the power of the gods in the world in exchange for their boons. Ultimately though, when a diabolist dies, his soul goes to his patron demon, who can then use it as he pleases.
 
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Kemrain

First Post
IcyCool said:
Think of the poor Succubus. Everyone she sleeps with has a serious case of coyote ugly in the morning. It's enough to make her swear a vow of celibacy.

Hey wait ....

;)
It's not as if she can't turn the Energy Drain off... I mean.. Can't she?

Ryltar said:
what happens to incubi dating succubi? ;)
Doesn't that defeat the purpose? Tempting a succubus to sin.. Pfft..


Gothmog, you get the second "The Man" award. That is a WICKED cool cosmology. You rock.

Dakkareth said:
First off, I love the thread title :D.
Thanks. Thought it might draw some attention.

- Kemrain the Pleased.
 

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