Going shopping...
- Thread starter Dannyalcatraz
- Start date
Not necessarily a killing blow- more like it may not be ripe yet.
Continuing down this road, though- the classes: how flexible are they? If I wanted to play a spellslinger who knew a bit about melee, or a barbarian with a little personal arcane prowess at his disposal, can the system handle it?
Continuing down this road, though- the classes: how flexible are they? If I wanted to play a spellslinger who knew a bit about melee, or a barbarian with a little personal arcane prowess at his disposal, can the system handle it?
There's no formal multiclassing rules at this point, but there is a passage on essentially swapping features between classes with DM permission. While different classes have different structures, all classes begin with three talents, and you can generally swap talents between classes without causing any real issues. There's no inbuilt way to give a barbarian arcane prowess (in the form of actual spellcasting), but the structurally similar ranger has talents that give you access to a little bit of clerical or sorcerous magic, and as a DM I think it'd be totally fair to let a Barbarian take one of those. The primary impediments to a spellcaster being competent at melee is that putting points into Strength to use melee weapons spreads a character's stats out a little more that they'd otherwise be spread out. (And that there's little mechanical incentive to fight with a weapon when you're more effective with spells.) Sorcerers are actually vaguely adequate with weapons to begin with - they take no penalty to fighting with light or medium weapons - but there's little incentive to do so by default. What sorcerers do have is a really cool talent called "Spell Fist" that does encourage them to get up close and personal, and while the default fluff doesn't involve using a weapon, there's nothing stopping you. It's more about spellcasting in melee than about actually making basic melee attacks, though.
Generally, swapping features for other features as the book suggests doesn't cause any real problems. Sure, it can be used for powergamey purposes (choosing your favorites from among 60 talents is obviously going to be better than choosing your favorites from among seven talents), but most swaps are pretty benign.
EDIT: Another cool thing for the barbarian with a little bit of arcane knowledge is that you can use whatever you want as your background for a character, and that gives you a bonus to skill checks where that background would be relevant. So if you want your barbarian to know all kinds of arcane-y stuff, you can just pick something from his backstory that justifies that knowledge as one of your backgrounds, and then add the bonus to relevant ability checks. (The game doesn't have a set skill list.) So for example, your barbarian could spend four of his or her background points (you get eight total) on "Rageguard of the Order of the Inner Pentafex" or "Almost didn't flunk out of the Arcane Academy" of "Raised by sweet wizards" or "Thaumaturgic intuition" or "Ate like five wizard brains and absorbed their knowledge, I'm pretty sure" or basically anything else you can think of, and then whenever you make a skill check where the background you picked is relevant, you can add 4 to it.
Generally, swapping features for other features as the book suggests doesn't cause any real problems. Sure, it can be used for powergamey purposes (choosing your favorites from among 60 talents is obviously going to be better than choosing your favorites from among seven talents), but most swaps are pretty benign.
EDIT: Another cool thing for the barbarian with a little bit of arcane knowledge is that you can use whatever you want as your background for a character, and that gives you a bonus to skill checks where that background would be relevant. So if you want your barbarian to know all kinds of arcane-y stuff, you can just pick something from his backstory that justifies that knowledge as one of your backgrounds, and then add the bonus to relevant ability checks. (The game doesn't have a set skill list.) So for example, your barbarian could spend four of his or her background points (you get eight total) on "Rageguard of the Order of the Inner Pentafex" or "Almost didn't flunk out of the Arcane Academy" of "Raised by sweet wizards" or "Thaumaturgic intuition" or "Ate like five wizard brains and absorbed their knowledge, I'm pretty sure" or basically anything else you can think of, and then whenever you make a skill check where the background you picked is relevant, you can add 4 to it.
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Dungeoneer
First Post
Ahem. If I may, I just finished reading the core rule book two days ago and immediately wrote up an exhaustive and enthusiastic review of it. With Mr. Alcatraz's permission, I'll repost it here in hopes of swaying him. 
Here we go:
13th Age is the classic swords-and-sorcery tabletop game, modernized. It’s a system built for fast, fun combat that also encourages role-playing and improvisation. It tries to balance the races and classes available to players while also making every choice feel distinct. And it trades in-depth simulation of its fantasy world for simple-yet-clever game mechanics.
This shouldn’t surprise you once you know that this game is the brain-child of Jonathan Tweet and Rob Heinsoo, lead designers of Dungeons and Dragons 3rd and 4th edition, respectively. 13th Age is very much a descendant of those games, but it is able to jettison a lot of their baggage. It’s simpler and faster than 4th Edition and more tactical and balanced than 3rd. And it also adds mechanics specifically to encourage role-play, something no edition of D&D has ever done.
This game is not for everybody. If you prefer an exhaustive fantasy simulation that has tables that list the overland travel speed of a one-donkey cart or an entire sub-system of grapple rules this is not your game. But if you want a game where a mission from the Archmage finds you fighting storm giants on top of a migratory terrasque, well, you’re gonna like this.
The major new mechanic of 13th Age is the Icon system. The important thing about icons is that every piece of the game relates to them - the setting, the story, the rules… and the players. Each player will pick three Icon Relationships at the start of the game, and they will roll to see which relationships will factor into a given game session. The Icons themselves are fantasy archetypes: the Archmage, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Gold Wyrm and the Prince of Shadows, among others. Most of them will fit just about any fantasy world, although 13th Age comes with its own sandbox setting for them to play in.
Combat in 13th Age does away with counting squares or hexes and tracking movement speed. You are either near enough to hit that orc with your axe or you are not. The ‘escalation die’ mechanic makes sure that combat keeps getting more exciting without overstaying its welcome. Abilities for both monsters and players trigger off the natural values of the d20. Many attacks do damage on a miss. Leveling doubles, then triples, then quintuples damage and HP. This really is a ruleset that is simple and elegant yet still looks fun to play.
The book itself is no slouch, either. It is nicely bound with color-coded pages, full-page color illustrations and a nice map. It contains everything you need to run a game: the rules, character creation, monsters, treasures, the setting and a sample adventure. Tables and charts are reproduced at the back of the book for convenience, and the index doubles as a glossary of terms! Nice touch.
The style of the book is conversational, with frequent sidebars explaining the intent behind many of the rules. Wonder why a half-elf would want to lower their d20 roll by 1? No need, a sidebar explains the significance (many powers trigger on natural even rolls). Often the designers will offer their personal preferences, especially when it comes to optional rules (such as rolled stats vs. point buy). No trap feats or powers here! Well, there is one, but it’s called out hilariously in, yes, a sidebar. This book is not trying to give the edge to the rules lawyers or trick unwary players. I appreciate that.
My one beef is that the authors actually needed to spend more time on Icons. There are no concrete examples given of how Icon relationships should work in actual play. For a new mechanic that is so central, this seems like an oversight. Granted, by reading the sample adventure and listening to some podcasts I was able to figure it out, but others will not be so patient.
Chapter 1 introduces the concept of Icons as well as the thirteen Icons themselves. Each one is given a motivation, allies and enemies. The chapter ends with a grid showing the alignments of all thirteen.
Chapter 2 outlines the basics of character creation, including two more mechanics new to 13th Age: backgrounds and One Unique Thing. Backgrounds replace skills in this game, basically taking the skill system and making it a little more open-ended and RP-driven. A character’s OUT is just what it sounds like, a feature that sets them apart from anyone else in the world. A player could make it a fun little quirk or it could be something that has a profound impact on the setting. The player is discouraged from choosing an OUT that has mechanical effects on combat.
Chapter 3 is the Race chapter. All the traditional races are present, as are several of the ‘second tier’ races such as Tieflings and Warforged that players have come to expect (these latter are optional). Races provide an ability and a choice of two stat bonuses.
Chapter 4 is one of my favorite chapters, the Class chapter. Most of the traditional classes are here (Monk and Druid will appear in a later book) and brilliantly executed. Every class feels distinct and interesting without negating the unique feel of sorcerers and wizards. Sorcerers get a cool ‘gather power’ ability that lets them store up energy for really big hits, and Wizards get an eclectic mix of spells that will help them shine both in and out of combat. But I was also very impressed by the implementation of some of the other classes, including the oft-maligned Bard.
Chapter 5 are the combat rules. They will be familiar to D20 veterans, but there are enough important differences that they shouldn’t be skimmed. I really liked the full heal-up mechanic that encourages players to fight more battles in a day instead of fewer, although it may be too ‘game-y’ for some tastes.
Chapter 6 is for DMs running the game. Of special note here is the concept of ‘incremental advance’, where players gain ‘partial levels’. This is a simple but cool idea which could easily be applied to other D20 games.
Chapter 7 lists several dozen monsters. Monsters have self-contained stat blocks (no spell lists) which makes them very easy to use, modify and level up (or down). Despite their simplicity, most monsters have creative abilities that should give them a very nice flavor. Many monsters also have optional ‘nasty’ abilities that DMs can tack on to challenge experienced parties.
Chapter 8 describes The Dragon Empire. The setting is something of a grab-bag, which I think is by design. There’s some really good ideas in there, but I’m not sure it all comes together. Still, there’s lots of stuff to pillage for your home game, which was probably the intent.
Chapter 9 is devoted to magic items. This introduces two more unique 13th Age mechanics: quirks and chakras. Mechanically, quirks and chakras attempt to avoid the Christmas Tree Effect where high level players are decked with magic items. But it does so with a credible role-playing explanation. You see, magic items have personalities and characters have relationships to them. Having too many magic items can actually overwhelm the character’s own personality and place them in thrall to their items. Many players and DMs will note with glee the presence of a handful of Cursed Items.
Chapter 10 is a short sample adventure. Sample adventures are hard to do well in any game, and 13th Age is especially challenging because the adventure must account for the players’ icon relationships. Still, Heinsoo and Tweet do a fairly good job of coming up with a compelling story, albeit a short one.
The remainder of the book contains the index/glossary, the map, the character sheet and reproduction of most of the important tables and charts. Yes this book is pricey, but you are really getting plenty of value for your money here.
Overall I am impressed with the book and excited for the game. When I first heard of 13th Age it sounded like exactly the D20 system I had been looking for. And now that I’ve read it, it’s actually better than I expected. I really cannot wait to run a game!
Here we go:
13th Age is the classic swords-and-sorcery tabletop game, modernized. It’s a system built for fast, fun combat that also encourages role-playing and improvisation. It tries to balance the races and classes available to players while also making every choice feel distinct. And it trades in-depth simulation of its fantasy world for simple-yet-clever game mechanics.
This shouldn’t surprise you once you know that this game is the brain-child of Jonathan Tweet and Rob Heinsoo, lead designers of Dungeons and Dragons 3rd and 4th edition, respectively. 13th Age is very much a descendant of those games, but it is able to jettison a lot of their baggage. It’s simpler and faster than 4th Edition and more tactical and balanced than 3rd. And it also adds mechanics specifically to encourage role-play, something no edition of D&D has ever done.
This game is not for everybody. If you prefer an exhaustive fantasy simulation that has tables that list the overland travel speed of a one-donkey cart or an entire sub-system of grapple rules this is not your game. But if you want a game where a mission from the Archmage finds you fighting storm giants on top of a migratory terrasque, well, you’re gonna like this.
The major new mechanic of 13th Age is the Icon system. The important thing about icons is that every piece of the game relates to them - the setting, the story, the rules… and the players. Each player will pick three Icon Relationships at the start of the game, and they will roll to see which relationships will factor into a given game session. The Icons themselves are fantasy archetypes: the Archmage, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Gold Wyrm and the Prince of Shadows, among others. Most of them will fit just about any fantasy world, although 13th Age comes with its own sandbox setting for them to play in.
Combat in 13th Age does away with counting squares or hexes and tracking movement speed. You are either near enough to hit that orc with your axe or you are not. The ‘escalation die’ mechanic makes sure that combat keeps getting more exciting without overstaying its welcome. Abilities for both monsters and players trigger off the natural values of the d20. Many attacks do damage on a miss. Leveling doubles, then triples, then quintuples damage and HP. This really is a ruleset that is simple and elegant yet still looks fun to play.
The book itself is no slouch, either. It is nicely bound with color-coded pages, full-page color illustrations and a nice map. It contains everything you need to run a game: the rules, character creation, monsters, treasures, the setting and a sample adventure. Tables and charts are reproduced at the back of the book for convenience, and the index doubles as a glossary of terms! Nice touch.
The style of the book is conversational, with frequent sidebars explaining the intent behind many of the rules. Wonder why a half-elf would want to lower their d20 roll by 1? No need, a sidebar explains the significance (many powers trigger on natural even rolls). Often the designers will offer their personal preferences, especially when it comes to optional rules (such as rolled stats vs. point buy). No trap feats or powers here! Well, there is one, but it’s called out hilariously in, yes, a sidebar. This book is not trying to give the edge to the rules lawyers or trick unwary players. I appreciate that.
My one beef is that the authors actually needed to spend more time on Icons. There are no concrete examples given of how Icon relationships should work in actual play. For a new mechanic that is so central, this seems like an oversight. Granted, by reading the sample adventure and listening to some podcasts I was able to figure it out, but others will not be so patient.
Chapter 1 introduces the concept of Icons as well as the thirteen Icons themselves. Each one is given a motivation, allies and enemies. The chapter ends with a grid showing the alignments of all thirteen.
Chapter 2 outlines the basics of character creation, including two more mechanics new to 13th Age: backgrounds and One Unique Thing. Backgrounds replace skills in this game, basically taking the skill system and making it a little more open-ended and RP-driven. A character’s OUT is just what it sounds like, a feature that sets them apart from anyone else in the world. A player could make it a fun little quirk or it could be something that has a profound impact on the setting. The player is discouraged from choosing an OUT that has mechanical effects on combat.
Chapter 3 is the Race chapter. All the traditional races are present, as are several of the ‘second tier’ races such as Tieflings and Warforged that players have come to expect (these latter are optional). Races provide an ability and a choice of two stat bonuses.
Chapter 4 is one of my favorite chapters, the Class chapter. Most of the traditional classes are here (Monk and Druid will appear in a later book) and brilliantly executed. Every class feels distinct and interesting without negating the unique feel of sorcerers and wizards. Sorcerers get a cool ‘gather power’ ability that lets them store up energy for really big hits, and Wizards get an eclectic mix of spells that will help them shine both in and out of combat. But I was also very impressed by the implementation of some of the other classes, including the oft-maligned Bard.
Chapter 5 are the combat rules. They will be familiar to D20 veterans, but there are enough important differences that they shouldn’t be skimmed. I really liked the full heal-up mechanic that encourages players to fight more battles in a day instead of fewer, although it may be too ‘game-y’ for some tastes.
Chapter 6 is for DMs running the game. Of special note here is the concept of ‘incremental advance’, where players gain ‘partial levels’. This is a simple but cool idea which could easily be applied to other D20 games.
Chapter 7 lists several dozen monsters. Monsters have self-contained stat blocks (no spell lists) which makes them very easy to use, modify and level up (or down). Despite their simplicity, most monsters have creative abilities that should give them a very nice flavor. Many monsters also have optional ‘nasty’ abilities that DMs can tack on to challenge experienced parties.
Chapter 8 describes The Dragon Empire. The setting is something of a grab-bag, which I think is by design. There’s some really good ideas in there, but I’m not sure it all comes together. Still, there’s lots of stuff to pillage for your home game, which was probably the intent.
Chapter 9 is devoted to magic items. This introduces two more unique 13th Age mechanics: quirks and chakras. Mechanically, quirks and chakras attempt to avoid the Christmas Tree Effect where high level players are decked with magic items. But it does so with a credible role-playing explanation. You see, magic items have personalities and characters have relationships to them. Having too many magic items can actually overwhelm the character’s own personality and place them in thrall to their items. Many players and DMs will note with glee the presence of a handful of Cursed Items.
Chapter 10 is a short sample adventure. Sample adventures are hard to do well in any game, and 13th Age is especially challenging because the adventure must account for the players’ icon relationships. Still, Heinsoo and Tweet do a fairly good job of coming up with a compelling story, albeit a short one.
The remainder of the book contains the index/glossary, the map, the character sheet and reproduction of most of the important tables and charts. Yes this book is pricey, but you are really getting plenty of value for your money here.
Overall I am impressed with the book and excited for the game. When I first heard of 13th Age it sounded like exactly the D20 system I had been looking for. And now that I’ve read it, it’s actually better than I expected. I really cannot wait to run a game!
Last edited:
Dungeoneer
First Post
Oops, should be fixed now.
Mercurius
Legend
I just got it in the mail a couple days ago but haven't had a chance to do more than briefly browse. My first impressions are this:
1) It seems relatively run-of-the-mill in terms of production value. Nothing wowing, but not bad. Not quite in the Numenera/Paizo/WotC level, but maybe a bit above the lower tier publishers. I suppose I found this mildly disappointing in that I was hoping it was a step above that, but it seems to incorporate relatively standard publishing styles that are halfway between uber-professional and some nerd's publishing software.
2) It is intelligent. Not sure how else to put it. The authors know fantasy, they know RPGs - and they've designed something that tries to go a step beyond "just another fantasy RPG" and create something....archetypal? I think the icons well represent what I'm trying to get at. In other words, the game isn't just derivative of other RPGs but taps into myth and world traditions.
1) It seems relatively run-of-the-mill in terms of production value. Nothing wowing, but not bad. Not quite in the Numenera/Paizo/WotC level, but maybe a bit above the lower tier publishers. I suppose I found this mildly disappointing in that I was hoping it was a step above that, but it seems to incorporate relatively standard publishing styles that are halfway between uber-professional and some nerd's publishing software.
2) It is intelligent. Not sure how else to put it. The authors know fantasy, they know RPGs - and they've designed something that tries to go a step beyond "just another fantasy RPG" and create something....archetypal? I think the icons well represent what I'm trying to get at. In other words, the game isn't just derivative of other RPGs but taps into myth and world traditions.
There are no official multiclassing rules, but for one player I had that didn't quite match any of the classes I just traded one of his talents for another class' talent that helped him round out his idea and that worked perfectly. Also you can use the One Unique Thing for "I can turn into a fox" as long as it doesn't have a clear in combat advantage.
Thank you- very thorough & informative.Ahem. If I may, I just finished reading the core rule book two days ago and immediately wrote up an exhaustive and enthusiastic review of it. With Mr. Alcatraz's permission, I'll repost it here in hopes of swaying him.
Here we go:
(snip- mucho stuff)
RangerWickett
Legend
I half like it. Mind you, I only half read it. But the half I read made me think that they kept some of the 4eisms that they shouldn't have.
For instance, as you gain levels, your attack rolls and defense rating go up automatically. And so do your hit points and the amount of damage you do. If they'd only increased one set or the other (sort of like how D&D Next's bounded accuracy only increases HP and damage), the system would feel smoother.
And they do tend to write out abilities more like 4e powers rather than actual narrative things that just need some game mechanics to model them. What exactly does it mean that you roll even vs. odd on an attack? (A left-handed swing vs. a right-handed one, perhaps?)
For instance, as you gain levels, your attack rolls and defense rating go up automatically. And so do your hit points and the amount of damage you do. If they'd only increased one set or the other (sort of like how D&D Next's bounded accuracy only increases HP and damage), the system would feel smoother.
And they do tend to write out abilities more like 4e powers rather than actual narrative things that just need some game mechanics to model them. What exactly does it mean that you roll even vs. odd on an attack? (A left-handed swing vs. a right-handed one, perhaps?)
