Gold or Silver Standard?

[ZappoHisbane]

So given the choice between defeating a lich, or defeating a handful of goblin bandits, what does your 1st level character do first?

Does he choose the path of greater good or greater power?

That's not a choice between good and power. That's a choice between impossible and possible.

What you really want to ask is do they go attack the bandits robbing from the rich and giving to the poor (and keeping the money for themselves), or stopping the feral wolves that are ravaging the local's livestock, for little or no reward. At which point it comes down to a question of alignment and playstyle. Not every group is going to pick the same answer.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Just a couple of things to consider. In 1e/2e you couldn't buy magic items so all that you could ever acquire were those (generally) appropriately leveled items you found in modules. Item creation in those days were more of a hassle than it was worth so was almost never done by the PCs.

Earlier editions also had a lot more "ceilings" than 3e had. Saving Throws were fundamentally different in those days - your saves got easier as you got higher level to the point where they were all pretty much gimmes to make in the high teens. AC had a hard limit (-10) so the range of AC across the game was very compressed and items only got you so far. Stats had a hard limit as well and there were very few ways to boost them. HD caps limited HPs from Con. Caps on Attack Progressions...

In 3e the sky was basically the limit (especially when magic items became easily purchasable) so more attention had to be paid to game balance.

Except that it wasn't, instead of paying attention to game balance, they simply slapped in a "suggested wealth" (of a ludicrous value), took out all the old "money sinks" (castles etc.), priced up magical items with precise prices like they were commonly bought and sold, and walked off assuming it would all be ok.

I really don't see much of a difference between that and 2E, say, except that it's much more prescriptive in what is "expected", giving players a sense that something is "owed" to their characters, whilst making monty haul campaigns more obviously cheesy.

I really preferred magic item creation being "more of a hassle", too, but that's another thread.

 

[KidSnide]

I disagree that many are even interested in that. WOTC has done a fair amount of research into what sells. notice how there were very few supplements on raising armies, running towns etc... Heroes of Battle and Stronghold Builders were about it. Most of the books out now are about impriving YOUR character, not their hordes of mooks no one wants to fiddle with in the first place.

It's certainly true that 3E was about improving your character, not your character's army and domain. However, that's all putting the cart before the horse. The reason that raising an army isn't very interesting is because D&D doesn't have a good mass combat system. Who cares what ammunition your 2000 elven archers are using if they can't really fight anyone. Believe me, nobody would care about +5 swords if D&D didn't have a satisfying combat mechanism for small groups.

Of course, core D&D shouldn't maintain it's focus on individual combat. (And it will. As noted, WotC isn't nuts.)

But in year 3 or so, I would like to see a good mass combat system based on the core 4E principals. That is to say - units should behave like units and should have interesting characteristics based on what the units are made of. Presumably, spear units would all have a certain feel that is different from sword units, but orc units would also work a little differently than dwarf units. The hard problems are (A) figuring out how units interact with individual characters and (B) making sure that the various classes all have different cool things they can do in mass combat that don't make people chose between having fun during mass combat battles and having fun the rest of the time.

But if we had a good mass combat system, folks could start caring about armies and castles because your army effectively becomes your character's most important piece of equipment.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

But if we had a good mass combat system, folks could start caring about armies and castles because your army effectively becomes your character's most important piece of equipment.

The Black Company d20 book had good mass combat rules. Better than Heroes of Battle in most respects. If you merged the DMG2 mob rules, the HoB rules, and the BCCS rules you'd get about the best mass combat possible within the bounds of the d20 system.

 

[Dausuul]

So given the choice between defeating a lich, or defeating a handful of goblin bandits, what does your 1st level character do first?

Does he choose the path of greater good or greater power?

He chooses the path of greater good. Which means he goes after the bandits, because the lich will swat him like a bug and no good will be accomplished.

 

[rob626]

cash mechanic

On Carrying Cash: The Living Greyhawk series sort of explained the whole "carry ten tons of gold to pay for a magic sword" thing. The gold wasn't actually accumulated so much as the adventurers accumulated favor or possibly some gems and used the purchase price of high end magic items as a short hand for how the character came to possess it.

Instead of role-playing the power bartering session with the uber-wizard LG assumed that kind of detail took place in the background. Like it or don't but that's the way they treated the enormous amounts of cash. They assumed the character had that much in assets and could convert it to what the seller wanted in their downtime.

On Magic Item Disposal: As a DM I encourage my players to give the low level items they did not want to npc's in the campaign.

Give the head of the militia a +1 Spoon of Doom and he is your pal for life.

Give the local orphan a Ring of Whatever +1 and he you can be sure to have an informant (who is much more likely to survive, by the way) when the party needs a favor.

Give the village drunk a Dagger +1 with the firm condition that he turn his life around. This actually happened in one campaign. When he rode up on his shining horsie as a level 5 paladin years later and thanked the pc's for a second chance in life, it went over very well.

My point is there have always been creative methods of dealing with the "useless" magic items.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

What no D&D players out there want to build a castle, raise armies and wage wars? No players out there who want to start their own guild? No players out there who want their own mansion and to live in luxury when not butchering the BBEG du jour?

Like I said, it takes a special type of player interested in that. Out of my group of 6, only 1 is that type of player. I had to go to 3rd party supplements to get decent rules, which tells me that, in general, your average player isnt that interested in army building. Any of the completes far outsold Heroes of Battle if that tells you where interest lies. Hell, it wasnt until I pointed out that they lived in a hovel that the remaining 5 took any interest in actually spending gold on a remotely decent lifestyle for their characters. Even still, most of their gold goes towards buying more power for themselves, which is fairly understandable given their deadly lifestyle.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

But we don't know if the spear fighter will be different from the longspear fighter, or the (long)sword and board fighter is different from the (bastard)sword and board fighter, or even if the greataxe fighter is different fromt he greatsword fighter.

From what I have seen, I believe 4e will be balanced around styles, and the styles around broader weapon properties (including but not necessarily limited to Type).

I really think the idea of a 1st level fighter locking himself into a specific weapon (ie, Weapon Focus: Longsword) is just bad design.

I think its based off type. Polearm, sword, bow, etc, based on the pick entry, where it listed the weapon type. I wish they had gone broader myself as well.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

This hints at one of my biggest problems with 3ed. At higher levels, the "bad guys", even the mooks, have magic items. So at the end of any given adventure, the PC's are hauling around tons of +1 weapons, armor, rings of protection, etc. They are needed to give the enemies a boost to provide a challenge for the PC's but the PC's have no need for these items, other than to pool the funds they get for selling them and convert them into items they do want.

Really every edition had this issue. In 1st you gave that junk to your henchman. In 3rd you sold it to get yourself better gear. Really only 2nd lacked a way to dispose of it in a beneficial fashion under the assumed play style.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think the economy needs to be based on the chicken-day. A man should be able to work for a day to feed himself for a day.

Surely it needs to get a bit more than that to feed his wife and chidlins, though...