Baron Opal
First Post
ZombieRoboNinja said:
That's what I do now. What am I doing wrong?
Gold or Silver Standard?
- Thread starter JoeGKushner
- Start date
That's what I do now. What am I doing wrong?
I voted 'other'.
Apologies in advance for the length of this post.
I guess my main problem with the prices for magical items is the ridiculous number of coins that would have to be physically conveyed to a vendor to purchase something.
In these days of paper notes, bank cheques and electronic transactions, we are able to conduct transactions in thousands and even millions of dollars. That was simply not possible prior to the invention of paper currencies like the pound note.
Consider the size and weight of a gold dubloon. Now look at how many of those you need for a vanilla plus 3 item.
Let's also assume that moneychangers don't typically handle coins in wagonload-bulk, simply because they don't have a Scrooge McDuck Moneybin-type edifice out the back of their shop.
Assuming a lack of a handbag of TARDIS-dimensions or a ritual capable of teleporting tonnes and tonnes of metal, how on earth are the players going to get several oxen-cart-loads of coinage from dungeon to vendor? (Who, presumably, is set up comfortably in a major city, wizard academy or private estate, and not in a shack right outside the lair of the terrifying beast with a well-deserved reputation to be A Clear And Present Danger and Too Big Too Mess With). Anyone naive enough to assume that a convey of wagons transporting this coin over several miles is going to even make it halfway without being fallen upon by every currency-using sentient within a hundred leagues deserves the disappointment of being left sitting on the vendor's front step at 3am, wondering where all that money went. Even if the bandits and ogres don't get the money, then the veritable sea of paupers and beggars that would swarm to the convoy certainly would.
Gold coins were big and heavy, yes, but a single chest of them could hold a king's ransom. They were not used in everyday trade.
By the same logic, any coins of more valuable metals should be so rare as be virtually legendary in their own right, probably named individually the same way unusually large diamonds are.
There's a reason we have the word 'priceless' in our vocabulary - it was possible for an item to be so expensive that no feasible amount of currency could purchase it.
It's my opinion that magical items should be priceless, and not sold for coin - at least, not in full. There would still a coinage cost - they have to maintain living costs, after all, but these are but a fraction of the full price charged. Instead, you would either have to provide a similarly priceless item in exchange, like an exceptional gem, or else you would first have to go to great lengths to secure the esoteric materials required to craft these items. The dangers and difficulty involved would, of course, equate to a level-appropriate adventure. (Conversely, such a material could be found in a treasure trove in lieu of an item, allowing the player to use it to barter for an item.)
Continuing that train of thought, prior to the advent of mass-production items beyond the quality used by the common citizenry were not generally produced in quantity and then set out on a shelf or in a window in the hopes of attracting a buyer. Instead, due to the time and materials required, they were generally made on commission. At most there would be a handful of display pieces to demonstrate that the craftsman had the skill required to fulfill commissions.
In other words, my preferred way of handling a magical item economy is a far cry from the Magi-mart assumption in 3E, and neither requires nor benefits from the availability of thousands and thousands of coins.
Apologies in advance for the length of this post.
I guess my main problem with the prices for magical items is the ridiculous number of coins that would have to be physically conveyed to a vendor to purchase something.
In these days of paper notes, bank cheques and electronic transactions, we are able to conduct transactions in thousands and even millions of dollars. That was simply not possible prior to the invention of paper currencies like the pound note.
Consider the size and weight of a gold dubloon. Now look at how many of those you need for a vanilla plus 3 item.
Let's also assume that moneychangers don't typically handle coins in wagonload-bulk, simply because they don't have a Scrooge McDuck Moneybin-type edifice out the back of their shop.
Assuming a lack of a handbag of TARDIS-dimensions or a ritual capable of teleporting tonnes and tonnes of metal, how on earth are the players going to get several oxen-cart-loads of coinage from dungeon to vendor? (Who, presumably, is set up comfortably in a major city, wizard academy or private estate, and not in a shack right outside the lair of the terrifying beast with a well-deserved reputation to be A Clear And Present Danger and Too Big Too Mess With). Anyone naive enough to assume that a convey of wagons transporting this coin over several miles is going to even make it halfway without being fallen upon by every currency-using sentient within a hundred leagues deserves the disappointment of being left sitting on the vendor's front step at 3am, wondering where all that money went. Even if the bandits and ogres don't get the money, then the veritable sea of paupers and beggars that would swarm to the convoy certainly would.
Gold coins were big and heavy, yes, but a single chest of them could hold a king's ransom. They were not used in everyday trade.
By the same logic, any coins of more valuable metals should be so rare as be virtually legendary in their own right, probably named individually the same way unusually large diamonds are.
There's a reason we have the word 'priceless' in our vocabulary - it was possible for an item to be so expensive that no feasible amount of currency could purchase it.
It's my opinion that magical items should be priceless, and not sold for coin - at least, not in full. There would still a coinage cost - they have to maintain living costs, after all, but these are but a fraction of the full price charged. Instead, you would either have to provide a similarly priceless item in exchange, like an exceptional gem, or else you would first have to go to great lengths to secure the esoteric materials required to craft these items. The dangers and difficulty involved would, of course, equate to a level-appropriate adventure. (Conversely, such a material could be found in a treasure trove in lieu of an item, allowing the player to use it to barter for an item.)
Continuing that train of thought, prior to the advent of mass-production items beyond the quality used by the common citizenry were not generally produced in quantity and then set out on a shelf or in a window in the hopes of attracting a buyer. Instead, due to the time and materials required, they were generally made on commission. At most there would be a handful of display pieces to demonstrate that the craftsman had the skill required to fulfill commissions.
In other words, my preferred way of handling a magical item economy is a far cry from the Magi-mart assumption in 3E, and neither requires nor benefits from the availability of thousands and thousands of coins.
howandwhy99
Adventurer
I was always partial to Gygax's BUC system (basic unit coin).
Simply find the current costs of items in your own country (in the real world) and convert them to BUCs. It's easy, 1 BUC = 1 Currency in your country. Be it dollar, euro, pound, whatever. Of course, it helps to have some common medieval item prices too like swords and steel armor, but most any RPG has equivalents for these.
Simply find the current costs of items in your own country (in the real world) and convert them to BUCs. It's easy, 1 BUC = 1 Currency in your country. Be it dollar, euro, pound, whatever. Of course, it helps to have some common medieval item prices too like swords and steel armor, but most any RPG has equivalents for these.
Cadfan said:
I'm sure 4E will have an equivalent to wealth by level, but it doesn't have to be as restrictive as it was in 3E.
The reason I find 3E's WBL system so oppressive is that magic items have radically different effects on different classes. Warrior types are hugely dependent on their magic items; casters far less so. Therefore, if you hand out more or less treasure than normal for WBL, you mess up the balance between the classes.
If magic items have roughly the same impact on all classes (which they seem to be shooting for with stuff like wizard implements), then life is a lot easier for the DM who likes more or less loot in a campaign. If you hand out less loot, just scale back the monsters a bit to match. If you hand out more loot, scale the monsters up. At that point, WBL becomes truly a guideline, instead of a rule in guideline's clothing.
I'm a proponent of a copper (well, copper/silver pence) standard, with real-world clasical valuations (1-12-240).
The mechanical difference is this -- Let's say you get 5,000 base units treasure. In 3E, you have no choice but to get a magical bag of holding to carry around your 5,000 gp. In a pence-based system, you can convert your 5,000 copper pence to 20 gold coins and carry that around in your robe.
In short, the base unit should be the bottom of the scale, not the top.
The mechanical difference is this -- Let's say you get 5,000 base units treasure. In 3E, you have no choice but to get a magical bag of holding to carry around your 5,000 gp. In a pence-based system, you can convert your 5,000 copper pence to 20 gold coins and carry that around in your robe.
In short, the base unit should be the bottom of the scale, not the top.
Last edited:
The Human Target
Adventurer
I voted silver.
I agree with a lot of the things pro-silver and pro-copper people have already posted.
Plus from a thematic standpoint, silver fits PoL better than gold.
I'd also kinda of like to see things like steel (ala Dragonlance) coins and things of that nature used in the base game.
Also, some form of bartering rules.
I like the visual of the low levels Pcs saving a village from goblins bandits, and the villagers give them a flock of sheep as a reward. And actually having those sheep be a valid reimbursement.
I agree with a lot of the things pro-silver and pro-copper people have already posted.
Plus from a thematic standpoint, silver fits PoL better than gold.
I'd also kinda of like to see things like steel (ala Dragonlance) coins and things of that nature used in the base game.
Also, some form of bartering rules.
I like the visual of the low levels Pcs saving a village from goblins bandits, and the villagers give them a flock of sheep as a reward. And actually having those sheep be a valid reimbursement.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
When it comes to hauling around large amounts of cash (when they're not just lugging treasure back to town from an adventure), I've always sort-of assumed they convert most of their coins into gems. A 1000 g.p. gem weighs a whole lot less than 1000 g.p..... 
And, I also assume there's a fair amount of barter involved when it comes to buying and selling magic items; that said, I still count everything in g.p. as it's a useful way of keeping track of wealth.
If the PoL setting doesn't allow for buying and selling of magic items at all that'll immediately become one of the more challenging aspects of the game: how to convert this +3 polearm that you found in the field but don't want into a +3 shortsword that you do want. (and, what explanation could possibly be used to justify "no trade in magic items", that would stand up under the scrutiny of...well, anything?)
Lanefan
And, I also assume there's a fair amount of barter involved when it comes to buying and selling magic items; that said, I still count everything in g.p. as it's a useful way of keeping track of wealth.
If the PoL setting doesn't allow for buying and selling of magic items at all that'll immediately become one of the more challenging aspects of the game: how to convert this +3 polearm that you found in the field but don't want into a +3 shortsword that you do want. (and, what explanation could possibly be used to justify "no trade in magic items", that would stand up under the scrutiny of...well, anything?)
Lanefan
loseth
First Post
[Lazy loseth fails to read through whole thread, running the risk that he may simply be repeating what others have said.]
I think it's important to keep in mind that there's a difference between A) a standard and B)what adventurers would normally carry. If adventurers continue, in 4e, to be super-rich and continue to have a need to cart around all or most of their wealth with them, then I'm sure they'll prefer gold over silver, and magic items over both as their main form of transportable wealth. Nothing wrong with that.
But, for me, the 'standard' is what the world functions in: what people quote prices in, what items are listed in in the PHB, what orcs demand as tribute, what shares in merchant operations are denominated in, what barons count their revenue in, etc. In the real middle ages, this was always silver. Not copper, not gold--always silver. 'One pound' (i.e. the ancestor of the currency still used in England) was a virtually universal denomination of money throughout former Roman lands and it meant, literally, one pound of silver. Now, just because your salary was, say £12 per year, that doesn't mean that the king would show up to pay you with 12 coins. In fact, most of the time, no pound coins actually existed--it was just a money of account. The king might actually pay you a dozen gold nobles, two or three bars of silver, a few dozen silver marks, a hundred pennies (a silver coin in the middle ages) and a few dozen farthings (a quarter of a small silver coin), but instead of that mouthfull, he'd just say, 'here's your twelve pounds, Castellan; don't spend it all in one place.'
That's how I like to think of money in D&D: gp, sp or whatever represents a money of account (and an average weight), but what someone actually pays when they buy a 60gp sword could be any old mish mash of coins and pieces of metal. This is true of a non-POL setting, and even more true of a POL one. The only thing I'd like to switch is to have the base unit of account be the sp rather than the gp. Or, even better, give the 'sp' a more thematic name, like 'mark.' Or maybe divide all prices by a factor of ten and make the base unit the pound. Swords might cost £5 and a warhorse £20. Then a gp could be a coin worth one pound--it would still be a gold coin, but would represent one pound of silver. This way, the standard could be silver, but adventurers could still carry around their precious, low-weight gp. But in any case, however it's accomplished, a silver standard just gives me way more of a medieval feeling, which I really like in my D&D games, POL or otherwise (I realise that this isn't to everybody's taste, though).
I think it's important to keep in mind that there's a difference between A) a standard and B)what adventurers would normally carry. If adventurers continue, in 4e, to be super-rich and continue to have a need to cart around all or most of their wealth with them, then I'm sure they'll prefer gold over silver, and magic items over both as their main form of transportable wealth. Nothing wrong with that.
But, for me, the 'standard' is what the world functions in: what people quote prices in, what items are listed in in the PHB, what orcs demand as tribute, what shares in merchant operations are denominated in, what barons count their revenue in, etc. In the real middle ages, this was always silver. Not copper, not gold--always silver. 'One pound' (i.e. the ancestor of the currency still used in England) was a virtually universal denomination of money throughout former Roman lands and it meant, literally, one pound of silver. Now, just because your salary was, say £12 per year, that doesn't mean that the king would show up to pay you with 12 coins. In fact, most of the time, no pound coins actually existed--it was just a money of account. The king might actually pay you a dozen gold nobles, two or three bars of silver, a few dozen silver marks, a hundred pennies (a silver coin in the middle ages) and a few dozen farthings (a quarter of a small silver coin), but instead of that mouthfull, he'd just say, 'here's your twelve pounds, Castellan; don't spend it all in one place.'
That's how I like to think of money in D&D: gp, sp or whatever represents a money of account (and an average weight), but what someone actually pays when they buy a 60gp sword could be any old mish mash of coins and pieces of metal. This is true of a non-POL setting, and even more true of a POL one. The only thing I'd like to switch is to have the base unit of account be the sp rather than the gp. Or, even better, give the 'sp' a more thematic name, like 'mark.' Or maybe divide all prices by a factor of ten and make the base unit the pound. Swords might cost £5 and a warhorse £20. Then a gp could be a coin worth one pound--it would still be a gold coin, but would represent one pound of silver. This way, the standard could be silver, but adventurers could still carry around their precious, low-weight gp. But in any case, however it's accomplished, a silver standard just gives me way more of a medieval feeling, which I really like in my D&D games, POL or otherwise (I realise that this isn't to everybody's taste, though).
frankthedm
First Post
47 pounds of gold is the cost of a +1 two handed sword in 3e. Even if players deal mostly with platinum, a few levels later, it is the same problem.
mach1.9pants
Hero
The 3 things that always bugged me about 3E's magic and money were:
1. XP to create magic items- mages would rarely, if ever, do it. Therefore very little items out there
2. Mr High Level Paladin lusts after a Holy Avenger to defeat evil in the world: cost 120,000gp (weight: 2400lbs- WHOA). But really wouldn't he do better with 6000 mercenaries for 100 days or 600 for just under 3 years!
3. Every village of 90 people (from the DMG) has 450gp of spare gold lying about (thats 50 days wages for every adult in the village) and any item of 100gp value is available- thats a BIG list. They'd be luky to have 45gp in cash and 1 item (that is not an animal or building) worth 10gp!
/END RANT
Glad I got that off my chest.. sorry for the slight hijack
1. XP to create magic items- mages would rarely, if ever, do it. Therefore very little items out there
2. Mr High Level Paladin lusts after a Holy Avenger to defeat evil in the world: cost 120,000gp (weight: 2400lbs- WHOA). But really wouldn't he do better with 6000 mercenaries for 100 days or 600 for just under 3 years!
3. Every village of 90 people (from the DMG) has 450gp of spare gold lying about (thats 50 days wages for every adult in the village) and any item of 100gp value is available- thats a BIG list. They'd be luky to have 45gp in cash and 1 item (that is not an animal or building) worth 10gp!
/END RANT
Glad I got that off my chest.. sorry for the slight hijack
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