Gold or Silver Standard?

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The real kicker of course being that if money can be spent on magic items, that is all large sums of money will ever be used for. This is the reason why I've always railed against them being on the market (at least the mid-level items on up).

The sale of magic items makes SENSE however. The PC's are likely to end up with something they cant use, particularly since fighters are even more tied to what type of weapons they use now. What happens when they try and sell that +2 pick no one wants? Does the universe suddenly grind to a halt as demi-powers convene on the auction in an effort to snatch away such an unbelievable item (despite magic items not being THAT rare)? You need guidelines for trading magic items, and commissioning their creation.

Forget about PCs building castles, cities, armies, mansions, servants and the myriad other things PCs could be spending their money on to actually contribute to the setting...

Yeah, the 8 guys who really want to just play Warhammer might care. Most modern players dont give 2 farts about counting their flour mill's units per season. That playstyle has greatly diminishes since the old days.

 

[JDJblatherings]

silver standard works well for making a treasure trove of a lot of gold more special.

20cp=5bp=1sp
20sp=4ep=1 gp= 1/10 PP

looks good to me.

Under such a spread 250 GP is a LOT of treasure. 10 PP is a fortune.

BUT...D&D and the GP have such a close relationship histrically that it feels like D&D when one is shoppign with heaps of gold coins.

 

[Dausuul]

The sale of magic items makes SENSE however. The PC's are likely to end up with something they cant use, particularly since fighters are even more tied to what type of weapons they use now. What happens when they try and sell that +2 pick no one wants? Does the universe suddenly grind to a halt as demi-powers convene on the auction in an effort to snatch away such an unbelievable item (despite magic items not being THAT rare)? You need guidelines for trading magic items, and commissioning their creation.

The problem is that for there to be a real trade in magic items, there needs to be both sufficient magic items to sustain the trade, and sufficient buyers. That works in a cosmopolitan setting such as Planescape or the Forgotten Realms. In a points-of-light setting... not so much.

Now, PCs should certainly be able to sell magic loot. But in most cases, they should not be able to get anywhere near the purchase price of a new-made magic item. If you're trying to sell a +2 pick, the odds are terribly against your finding somebody who actually wants such a weapon enough to shell out full price. Much more likely, you'll sell it to a low-level warrior type who's happy with any magic weapon, or to a travelling trader who'll take it in hopes of someday offloading it on some other sap. Either way, you'll get rooked on the price. The warrior can't afford to pay much, and the trader is too savvy to do so.

IMO, when you go to sell a magic item, the sale price should depend on a) the size of the market (small town, large town, small city, et cetera) and b) the demand for the item. A +2 greatsword is something that lots of people would want, so it should bring a solid selling price; a wand of sepia snake sigil, on the other hand, is a very specialized item which not many people would have any interest in buying.

Conversely, when going to buy a magic item, you shouldn't have your pick of the list. Instead, there should be a table one rolls on to see what items happen to be available just now (probably just the regular treasure table). If you want a specific item, you'll usually need to commission it custom-made from a suitably powerful wizard.

Yeah, the 8 guys who really want to just play Warhammer might care. Most modern players dont give 2 farts about counting their flour mill's units per season. That playstyle has greatly diminishes since the old days.

Modern players aren't interested in counting the output of flour mills, sure, but that doesn't mean they have no interest in things like castles and armies. They just want an NPC vizier to take care of all the fiddly details. D&D could quite easily support spending money on such things, so long as a) players don't have to sweat the details, and b) there's something interesting to do with castles and armies once you've got them.

 

[Dragonblade]

I stand by what I said, but let me clarify a bit.

First, I agree with your contention that in 4E 15th level monsters were balanced against 15th level PC's with a "Charlie Brown's Christmas Tree" worth of 15th level items. I think that's right.

But my point was that 4E has magical item assumptions, while 3E had magical item requirements. In 3E you were required to hand out items because of the nature of the class design; if you wanted to maintain intra-party balance the melee characters needed their items. It just didn't matter how much you futzed with the CR's; a high-level caster is merely inconvenienced by a lack of items, while a high-level Fighter is just frakked.

I think the whole point behind "Fighters Have Powers" and "+6 Wands" is that each class is balanced against the other at any given level of magical item possession, from Zero to Monte CookHaul. The Powers balance out the Spells, and the Elder Wand balances out Excalibur. No one has anything? No problem. Everyone's got Artifacts? No problem.

Now, you'll still have to fiddle with the Monster Levels to keep challenges at the right level (a 15th level party with items is more potent than one without), but at least no one person within the group will consistently outshine all the others in an itemless situation.

At least, that's my theory about what they're shooting for. It would be nice too if there was a little rule of thumb somewhere about how many "levels" items add to effectiveness, so that you know "No items? OK, treat these guys as -2 Lvl", but even if they don't I trust I'll figure it out eventually.

I agree completely and will be very happy if this is how 4e handles items.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The sale of magic items makes SENSE however. The PC's are likely to end up with something they cant use, particularly since fighters are even more tied to what type of weapons they use now.

Weapon proficiencies (and related feats) should be greatly expanded so that fighters don't become bound to one particular weapon.

Restrict them to type (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing, or ranged), sure, if you want to.

Throwing away magic battleaxes because you took Weapon Focus in dwarven waraxe is not conducive to "cool!" play.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Thanks for linking it though. At least it makes more sense than the 3E stuff and will presumably be less fiddly.

I don't have a problem with prices for magic - I just think the prices for magic were too extreme. I'd like to see someone go through and really redo the economic system of D&D to make it a little more "realistic." Realizing of course just how silly a concept that it. It would only have to be done once, and then the work would be over with.

In the real world, silver was the main currency in Europe because there was very little in the way of gold mining in Europe. Copper coins were not extensively used (if I'm remembering things right), hence the reason for pieces of eight, and I think getting into creating smaller coins would be of little use. For smaller than silver, go with barter. Use gold only for the big ticket items.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'd like to see someone go through and really redo the economic system of D&D to make it a little more "realistic." Realizing of course just how silly a concept that it. It would only have to be done once, and then the work would be over with.

Totally agree.

I think the economy needs to be based on the chicken-day. A man should be able to work for a day to feed himself for a day.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Weapon proficiencies (and related feats) should be greatly expanded so that fighters don't become bound to one particular weapon.

Restrict them to type (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing, or ranged), sure, if you want to.

Throwing away magic battleaxes because you took Weapon Focus in dwarven waraxe is not conducive to "cool!" play.

Kind of off-topic, but I like the PHB2 (IIRC) system of retraining feats (or even classes) which can eliminate this particular issue.

In my current campaign, I'm moving towards having small items be easily purchased/sold, and larger more valuable magical items can be sold in major auctions which the magical universities sponsor three times a year.

I think it needs to become a little tougher to sell the big stuff - I always wonder why a fighter would carry around 100,000 gp of gear if he could convert it to actual gold; isn't the reason most of PC's adventure presumably to get rich so they can live a life of leisure? In 3E it felt like they adventured so they could get more gold, so they could buy better gear to adventure more, so they could get more gold, so they could... etc, etc.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Isn't the reason most of PC's adventure presumably to get rich so they can live a life of leisure? In 3E it felt like they adventured so they could get more gold, so they could buy better gear to adventure more, so they could get more gold, so they could... etc, etc.

Speaking only for myself-- but at the same time, I suspect, for 95% of the PCs out there-- I adventure to accumulate power.

 

[GlassJaw]

Speaking only for myself-- but at the same time, I suspect, for 95% of the PCs out there-- I adventure to accumulate power.

Exactly. Kill things and take their stuff so you can kill more powerful things and get more powerful stuff.

I've always had a hard time wrapping my head around the D&D economy, especially if you consider the heroes in the minority in the "world". If 1st-level commoners dominate the world, the PC's are going to have very little use for massive amounts of gold because there won't be much to spend it on. On top of that, there shouldn't be a ton of coinage in a PoL setting because it's not practical on a day-to-day basis.

So back to the original point, when the players find magic items, especially ones that they can't use or are not as powerful as the ones they already have, what is the one thing they want to do? "Covert" those items into ones that they can use/want.

So why not remove the "gp" conversion altogether and employ a simple process? Doing so with also maintain a more realistic "economy" for the PoL setting - one that is separate from the PC/hero economy.