Golden Ice (BoED)

[nittanytbone]

Hello,

I'd like a quick bit of help on the Touch of Golden Ice feat from BoED to make sure that I know how to run it properly. Reference p. 35 BoED:

"Ravages and afflictions affect only evil creatures..."

Pretty straightforward. Animals and such won't be affected.

"...despite the immunity to poison which is common among such creatures..."

Immunity to poison doesn't protect the victim. What about class abilities (such as a Monk's protection from diseases gained via the "Purity of Body" ability?

Would feats that grant bonuses vs. poison saves apply? What about spells (Such as Iron Guts)?

"Ravages function in a manner similar to poisons..."

Again, pretty straightforward. The ravage allows a DC14 save. So, a DC14 FORT save protects you from this.

"Spells that function against poison and disease function, but they require a CL check vs. the DC of the ravage to negate it."

So, you have to make a DC14 caster level check to deal with Golden Ice via slow poison or neutralize poison.

"All ravages and afflictions are supernatural."

So antimagic field would heal one. What about Dispel Magic? Or Spell Resistance?

"Any evil creature either takes damage equal to that listed on the table (1d6 dex initial, 2d6 dex secondary), plus its CHA bonus."

Say a CHA 8 monk attacks a CHA 20 succubus. Does the succubus take 1d6-1 (Monk's CHA) or 1d6+5 damage (its own CHA)? It seems odd to punish an evil creature for having good ability scores! What if the evil creature has no ability score for CHA, or a negative ability score? For example, a hobgoblin has 8 CHA; does that mean it takes 1d6-1 damage?

If damage is subtracted, is there a minimum of 1 PT of damage to dex? Or does a roll of 1 on 1d6-1 mean zero damage is inflicted?

"An evil elemental or evil undead takes an extra 1 point of damage, and an evil cleric of an evil deity takes an extra two points of damage."

What about an evil undead cleric? Would that be 3 points, or 2?

 

[Pyrex]

"All ravages and afflictions are supernatural."

So antimagic field would heal one. What about Dispel Magic? Or Spell Resistance?

Supernatural abilities don't function in an AMF, so the Monk can use Touch of Golden Ice, but being in an AMF does not heal the damage. Dispel Magic is similarly useless. Supernatural abilities are not subject to SR, so that doesn't help either

"Any evil creature either takes damage equal to that listed on the table (1d6 dex initial, 2d6 dex secondary), plus its CHA bonus."

Say a CHA 8 monk attacks a CHA 20 succubus. Does the succubus take 1d6-1 (Monk's CHA) or 1d6+5 damage (its own CHA)? It seems odd to punish an evil creature for having good ability scores! What if the evil creature has no ability score for CHA, or a negative ability score? For example, a hobgoblin has 8 CHA; does that mean it takes 1d6-1 damage?

If damage is subtracted, is there a minimum of 1 PT of damage to dex? Or does a roll of 1 on 1d6-1 mean zero damage is inflicted?

It's 1d6+5. Yeah, it's weird, but Cha is the 'force of personality' trait, so high-Cha creatures are somehow more Evil than low-Cha creatures.

However, the Hobgoblin takes 1d6+0. The text explicitly says to add a bonus; it says nothing about subtracting a penalty.

Are there any creatures that don't have a Cha score?

"An evil elemental or evil undead takes an extra 1 point of damage, and an evil cleric of an evil deity takes an extra two points of damage."

What about an evil undead cleric? Would that be 3 points, or 2?

To seperate categories, so an Undead Cleric would take an extra 3.

 

[glass]

Are there any creatures that don't have a Cha score?

I'm pretty sure that the PHB says that anything without a charisma score an object, not a creature. Doesn't seem to be in the SRD though. Did they drop that text in 3.5?

It seems odd to punish an evil creature for having good ability scores!

It is odd, but IMO it is the least of the problems with golden ice, which is why it doesn't exist IMC.


glass.

 

[iceifur]

As I've noted before on another thread, Golden Ice is the bane of succubi. The default succubus has a Cha of 26 (a +8 bonus) and a Dex of 13. Combined with the "evil outsider" +2 ravage damage bonus, the poor succubus is taking 1d6+10 Dex damage on a failed save -- which, on average (13.5), will take her down to 0 Dex and out of the fight. Nasty.

 

[UltimaGabe]

I'm pretty sure that the PHB says that anything without a charisma score an object, not a creature. Doesn't seem to be in the SRD though. Did they drop that text in 3.5?

You are correct. No creature (even constructs and mindless undead) lacks a Charisma score- many mindless creatures have a 1, but never a -. Also important to note- if it lacks a Charisma score, it also lacks a Wisdom score.

In short, don't ever, ever, EVER implement Ravages and Afflictions into your game, and ESPECIALLY not the Touch of Golden Ice feat. It's a no-brainer for a good Monk, has no hefty prerequisites, and is FAR TOO OVERPOWERED for a series of feats, let alone a single feat. Not to mention that the idea of Ravages and Afflictions (poisons and diseases that good characters can use with no fear of hurting themselves) is just dumb.

 

[Jack Simth]

I'm pretty sure that the PHB says that anything without a charisma score an object, not a creature. Doesn't seem to be in the SRD though. Did they drop that text in 3.5?

It's in there - Monsters/Monster Types, Subtypes, and Special Abilities/Nonabilities/Charisma

 

[nittanytbone]

Thanks for the feedback.

I nerfed the feat with the following house rules:

- Touch of Golden Ice sets the DC equal to 10 + 1/2 CHAR LEVEL + CHA MOD, not to a static 14.

Rationale: This actually helps players in that it allows the feat to scale with level. It also makes it less attractive for monks (who often have to dump CHA) while making it more appealing to Paladins (who will in turn have difficulties with the unarmed attack thing). This also brings the feat DC into line with things such as Kiai Shout for setting DCs.

- Touch of Golden Ice may be used a number of times per day equal to 1/2 CHAR LEVEL.

Rationale: It is a PAIN IN THE NECK to have to roll a save and adjust a monster's DEX score every time the monk lands a hit. It slows down combat a TON. Furthermore, allowing a character free, infinite poison for the cost of a feat is unheard of. Even assassins (PrC) don't get that!

- The Ravage simply does 1d6 initial damage, 2d6 secondary. There is no modifier for the victim's CHA score or type.

Rationale: 1d6 DEX damage is still pretty darn serious, especially with the resistances to magical healing and such.

- Two Additional feats can be combined with this: Extra Touch of Golden Ice (+2 uses/day) and Ability Focus (+2 to DCs).

 

[Machiavelli]

That all sounds quite reasonable. I almost like it.

Still, the justification for HAVING this free, unlimited biological weapon pouring out of your hands is... silly. It seems like something a horrible abberation would possess, not a holy warrior.

 

[Aleolus]

Well, the point is that Golden Ice, and thus, Touch of Golden Ice, only work on vile creatures who serve darkness and evil. Therefor, they are not "biological weapons" as you meant it, they are holy tools to rid the world of evil. And in answer to one of the op's questions, yes, even an evil monk with Purity of Body or a Blackguard with Divine Grace could be affected by Ravages and Afflictions.

 

[iceifur]

Personally, if I were going to modify the feat, I'd just make it a logical extension of Stunning Fist. Something like:

Touch of Golden Ice [Exalted]

Your touch can be hazardous to evil creatures' health.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, Stunning Fist, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: Declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack ruins the attempt). Against an evil opponent, you can make an unarmed or natural weapon attack that ravages the target with an effect similar to golden ice (see the BoED for the effects), except there is no bonus to the Dex damage dealt and the DC is equal to (10 + 1/2 your character level + your Cha modifier). Each attempt counts as one of your uses of the Stunning Fist feat for the day.​

Bam. It ties the feat into an existing limiting mechanic (Stunning Fist), with enough variance (the relatively high BAB requirement and the Cha-based DC) to not make it a must-have monk feat. A single-classed fighter could take this at 9th level (8th level, if they've taken a VoP), and a single-classed monk could take it at 12th. Sounds about right to me.