D&D 5E Goliaths WebDM Misses the Mark, but Sparks My Curiosity

[doctorbadwolf]

Fair enough, I was really trying to avoid saying "disabilities" since I felt that opened too big of a can of worms, but I overcorrected and ended up in the other lane instead.

Yeah that makes sense.

And it’s honestly the single thing I always change about Goliaths. I’m not an anthropologist, but I have done a lot of research into ancient cultures, and hunter-gatherer cultures, and...yeah that isn’t actually how you ensure the survival of the tribe.

But I also ignore 5e fluff for most races. It’s...like the opposite of the mechanics. Not playtested, and largely less good than other editions.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

1. They fit the "Big Strong Race" archetype pretty much perfectly.

But they don't, that's the problem (apart from the name with it's biblical baggage). Half Orcs do more damage. Bugbears have longer reach. Dwarves are tougher and can be just as strong.

 

[Garthanos]

What about just giving up movement? Something like they are rooting themselves to the earth. Give 'em some defensive buffs but let them keep swinging away. That's some cool stand stand shizz, which appeals to me more than sticking my head in the sand.

That fits my game world lore where they are drawing their Strength from the earth... It could be they are trading movement for strength and moving slow is reflexive too. Definitely worth considering.

My Giants have strength that is fuelled by magic so can technically be quite unnatural in style they no longer act as primarily warriors because the discovered their love of building this may even be why they have non-combat strength like that of forklifts and machinery that can be far greater than their bursty combat strength.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

But they don't, that's the problem (apart from the name with it's biblical baggage). Half Orcs do more damage. Bugbears have longer reach. Dwarves are tougher and can be just as strong.

Okay, last response to you on this because you either can't process my words here for some reason (no idea where the problem is, could be me), but I find your posts on other subjects interesting.

They fit big strong guy perfectly. Half-Orcs are infinitesimally better for DPS, that's not "big strong" though. Bugbears are a borderline beast race and reach is not a "big strong" thing. Mountain Dwarfs I just a weird thing to bring up because they're 4 foot tall, so I'm not sure why you think they fit this archetype even remotely. That you include them shows some kind of severe disconnect.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm not sure how you can say "laughable exaggerations", especially since claiming "but fictional Sparta and ancients cultures did it too" misses a large point. Those are very dark settings as well.

If you are too weak, you are left behind to die. And, think about what "too weak" likely means. Using standard array and taking the lowest, you've got a 10 str and double carrying capacity, along with prof in athletics. Meaning that they likely are killing off Goliaths who are as strong as humans, or Goliaths who are born who are not "perfect specimens". And, despite it being done for centuries, killing and abandoning the weakest members of society is a very dark tone to start with.

And, if you are a great warrior, one who has served the tribe well for decades, you start looking for something to kill you. Because you have reached your prime. You now seek death, because otherwise you will grow weaker and die a pathetic death instead of a prideful one in a battle. Again, very common trope, lots of people who might have believed that back in ancient cultures. Still a very dark tone to set, that the warrior in his prime begins to seek out death, because he wishes to die in his prime.

I don't think you can make a reasonable argument about this when your starting point is theorising based on the Standard Array lol!

None of that makes even basic sense. No one magically knows of a baby will grow up to have 10 STR (I mean man what?!) and further nothing in the lore suggests they value only strength. On the contrary the stuff about finding their place in the tribe suggests there are other ways.

And yes "very dark" is a wild exaggeration. By that standard Klingons are pitch black in tone.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Okay, last response to you on this because you either can't process my words here for some reason (no idea where the problem is, could be me), but I find your posts on other subjects interesting.

I understand what you are saying. I just don't agree with it.

They fit big strong guy perfectly. Half-Orcs are infinitesimally better for DPS, that's not "big strong" though. Bugbears are a borderline beast race and reach is not a "big strong" thing. Mountain Dwarfs I just a weird thing to bring up because they're 4 foot tall, so I'm not sure why you think they fit this archetype even remotely. That you include them shows some kind of severe disconnect.

"Disconnect" is the issue. Goliaths may be big, but they aren't strong, when they have the same strength as someone only 4 feet tall! And how big are they really, when they have the same reach as a halfing? The fluff may say they are big and strong, but the game mechanics don't support that.

There was no doubt my 1st edition half ogre was big and strong because he could hit harder than anyone else, and there was no doubt he was tough because he had more hit points than anyone else. The game mechanics supported the description "big and strong", they did not contradict it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I understand what you are saying. I just don't agree with it.


"Disconnect" is the issue. Goliaths may be big, but they aren't strong, when they have the same strength as someone only 4 feet tall! And how big are they really, when they have the same reach as a halfing? The fluff may say they are big and strong, but the game mechanics don't support that.

There was no doubt my 1st edition half ogre was big and strong because he could hit harder than anyone else, and there was no doubt he was tough because he had more hit points than anyone else. The game mechanics supported the description "big and strong", they did not contradict it.

That last point is a interesting one but that is a hard flaw of 5E, not Goliaths specifically. No PC has over 20 STR (barring magic items etc). Virtually every STR primary PC will hit 20 STR between 4th and 12th level, regardless of whether they're a Minotaur, Hobgoblin, Firbolg, Goliath, Gnome or Halfling. Kobolds may be slightly delayed.

That was not true in any previous edition. Races had stat maxes (and genders, in 1E, ugh) in 1E and 2E, which were hard to exceed. In 3E and 4E you got a boost and it was unlikely people without your bonus could catch up.

But 5E caps everyone at 20, Halfling or Goliath. That's on 5E and it's limitations.

The game mechanics support it just as much as other races, given fact that they can lift and drag, what four times more than other races. That's certainly a very clear demonstration of strength, in par with the others. The reach thing re Bugbears never made much sense and has to be treated as just "a thing we accept". They don't have arms that are actually what, 6-7' long, which is what you'd need to justify that ability. If that's the concern just add it to them.

 

[Salthorae]

Goliaths may be big, but they aren't strong, when they have the same strength as someone only 4 feet tall! And how big are they really, when they have the same reach as a halfing? The fluff may say they are big and strong, but the game mechanics don't support that.

I wanted to counter with the fact that they have Powerful Build which makes them stronger than Half-orcs inherently. But since Bugbear's and Firbolgs, and Orcs (both regular and Eberron) and Loxodon's all get it, that argument falls a bit flat.

That said... what game mechanic SHOULD they get that would make them feel more of the fluff "big/strong"?

I don't mind them being one among many. They all kind of have different flavors and fluffs. Shrug

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't think you can make a reasonable argument about this when your starting point is theorising based on the Standard Array lol!

None of that makes even basic sense. No one magically knows of a baby will grow up to have 10 STR (I mean man what?!) and further nothing in the lore suggests they value only strength. On the contrary the stuff about finding their place in the tribe suggests there are other ways.

And yes "very dark" is a wild exaggeration. By that standard Klingons are pitch black in tone.

Is there some other metric I should be basing it upon?

IF I take the commoner statblock everything is 10's, which still gives the average Goliath a strength of 12. To be lower than a 10 they need to have a starting score lower than an 8. However, under the character creation rules of both point buy and standard array, Telling me that a score of 7 or less is probably incredibly rare.

Sure, it isn't exactly a scientific, statistical analysis, but it is close enough to give us an idea. If the Goliaths expel the "weakest" members of their tribe who cannot keep up, then they are likely expelling members with a strength of about 10, which is average human. Except, Goliaths all have proficiency in athletics and Powerful Build which treats them as large for carrying. That tells me that a weak Goliath is likely able to carry twice the equipment and supplies that a human would carry, and be able to climb and move through the mountains similiarly to a hobbyist mountain climber or survivalist.

And sure, nothing says they value only strength, but considering they value "athletic competitions" and abandon the weak, then the two biggest would be Strength and Constitution. The mental stats are not highly valued, because (whether this was 5e, 3.X or what) I remember reading that Goliath tribes usually suffer from a lack of leadership, because their fear of aging leads to their elders generally committing suicide by monster. So, physicality trumps everything else as presented in the RAW culture. Sure, you can have a wise leader, as long as they are also strong. And you can have a great craftsperson, as long as they are also strong.

As for Klingons, I have never actually watched much Star Trek, but considering the time period the TV show was made in, the "warrior culture" things I do know, and the visual designs I'm aware of. Yeah, it probably is dark as pitch if examined properly.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The reach thing re Bugbears never made much sense and has to be treated as just "a thing we accept". They don't have arms that are actually what, 6-7' long, which is what you'd need to justify that ability.

They don’t?

Their wingspan is certainly much greater than their height.