Good lower level spells to bother a higher level party?

[MichaelK]

Here's a question for you, though: if I cast silence on the water in a bucket, then dump the water on a spellcaster, does the silence work? Given that it would soak into their clothing, it would be pretty tough to remove!

That idea is so awesome, if I were your DM I'd be tempted to say yes.

However... the only time I can think of off the top of my head that this issue was tackled anywhere in the rulebooks was the fiend of possession which originally has the ability to possess an object and it isn't until several levels later that it gains the ability to possess a non-solid object like water or the air. This implies to me that water is not a valid target for "object", though it's far from definitive.

I've only got the core 3 on me though and I can't find anything more specific on this issue though.

If I was your DM I'd be forced to say no, but I would recommend researching a new spell (at a higher level) that could do exactly that as it is AWESOME!

 

[NewJeffCT]

That idea is so awesome, if I were your DM I'd be tempted to say yes.

However... the only time I can think of off the top of my head that this issue was tackled anywhere in the rulebooks was the fiend of possession which originally has the ability to possess an object and it isn't until several levels later that it gains the ability to possess a non-solid object like water or the air. This implies to me that water is not a valid target for "object", though it's far from definitive.

I've only got the core 3 on me though and I can't find anything more specific on this issue though.

If I was your DM I'd be forced to say no, but I would recommend researching a new spell (at a higher level) that could do exactly that as it is AWESOME!

Easy enough to get around - cast the silence on a grain of salt, dump the salt into the water where it dissolves... voila.

 

[Deset Gled]

On the expertise note, I was never sure the "correct ruling" on this, I just have my own interpretation. For any feats that required CE, but NOT Int 13 explicitly in the requirements list, you would still have access to those feats. Lower Int means lost access to CE, but you still have it. Is there any RAW on this?

You are correct. When you lose the prereq for a feat, you lose access to the feat, but still have the feat. If this wasn't the case, it would be very nasty for instances were feats are prereqs for a PrCs.

However, I don't think you will find any WotC feats that have Expertise as a prereq, but not Int +13. It is standard feat design to include the prereqs of a lower level feat in any feat higher up on the feat tree. This helps prevent abuse from feats gained from classes or items. I believe this fact may have been printed in an article about feat design guidelines published in Dragon Mag.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My all time favorite low level spell for bothering high level opponents? Shrink Item.

I use it to shrink campfires & oil, or even heavy objects like anvils or boulders, and then drop them upon the unsuspecting PCs.

The best use of it so far? I used all of the above, burying the party beneath a shower of rock...the oil dripped through the gaps...and the campfires lit the oil. The pinned party couldn't escape from under the boulders fast enough to avoid getting burned. Oh yeah- some of their gear caught fire and exploded, too.

In a less extreme but no less nasty application, I have had Kobolds use shrunken boulders to block tunnels as they flee pursuers, getting them effectively trapped in a dead end. They can even seal up the pathway they traveled down. Thus trapped, the party is at the mercy of the Kobolds.

Tucker, are you happy?

 

[dontpunkme]

However... the only time I can think of off the top of my head that this issue was tackled anywhere in the rulebooks was the fiend of possession which originally has the ability to possess an object and it isn't until several levels later that it gains the ability to possess a non-solid object like water or the air. This implies to me that water is not a valid target for "object", though it's far from definitive.

I've only got the core 3 on me though and I can't find anything more specific on this issue though.

If I was your DM I'd be forced to say no, but I would recommend researching a new spell (at a higher level) that could do exactly that as it is AWESOME!

Simple enough to solve start with a block of ice (either magical or mundane) cast silence on it and then use magic to melt. Add fire damage if brought to a boil (I have to imagine getting it to a boil wouldn't be hard for a caster). Because the entire object has it, it would thus transfer to all of the molecules.

 

[EroGaki]

This thread is getting just a little... silly. I as a DM would not allow silence to affect the water in the bucket. It seems a little munchkin-like for my taste. And casting it on a grain of salt and putting it in water wouldn't work, either; once the salt is absorbed into the water, you no longer have an anchor for the spell.

I seriously hope this thread isn't degenerating into a game of "how can I screw my players over."

 

[NewJeffCT]

This thread is getting just a little... silly. I as a DM would not allow silence to affect the water in the bucket. It seems a little munchkin-like for my taste. And casting it on a grain of salt and putting it in water wouldn't work, either; once the salt is absorbed into the water, you no longer have an anchor for the spell.

I seriously hope this thread isn't degenerating into a game of "how can I screw my players over."

Nope, I already got my ideas early in the thread... I had been using "minion" casters to bother the PCs as counter-spellers, but Dispel Magic as a counterspell has been continually failing for me. I've also used it as a targeted dispel as well, but without much luck, either.

So, instead of going that route, why not try something a bit different for a change? Some of the lower level Ray spells would be very effective, and also logical for a bad guys' minion to use ("use your weakness ray (Ray of Enfeeblement) to hit the first fighter type to attack me hand-to-hand" or "Cast that Mark of Doom spell on the next fighter that attacks me" or "If two of their spellcasters are together, go fart in their general direction" (hit them with Stinking Cloud)

I tend to respond to most of the ideas positively on here, just in case my players are reading these threads. ;=)

 

[MichaelK]

And casting it on a grain of salt and putting it in water wouldn't work, either; once the salt is absorbed into the water, you no longer have an anchor for the spell.

Agreed. The spell affects a specific object and no longer affects it if its destroyed. Being dissolved in water seems a pretty clear cut case of destroyed.

I seriously hope this thread isn't degenerating into a game of "how can I screw my players over."

Well it'd be a bad way of going about it. The DM gets to do it once, and the PCs then do it a hundred times on every opponent they face. Bit hard for the DM to refuse the idea after they've used it themselves.

 

[milo]

Ray of clumsiness+Escalating Enfeeblement(Complete Mage)
Escalating enfeeblement is a second level spell that acts exactly like ray of enfeeblement, unless the target already has a penalty to one of their physical ability scores, at that point it becomes a D10 instead of a D6.
Magic missile+Fell drain or fell weaken
Another good option is a magic missile w/ fell weaken or fell drain. He could hit 3 targets with magic missile at 5th level. Fell weaken is one level higher and fell drain is two levels higher. Weaken gives a -4 to str for one minute and fell drain gives a negative level for a minute. The penalty affects every enemy hit with the spell.
Grease
Even though the ray spells are touch based you might have issues hitting anything other than fullplate style tanks. You could be aiming at an AC of 18+ pretty easily with a high dex and ring of prot. Throw expertise on there and you could be looking at low 20s. At 6th level you would have a +3 BAB and a dex of 16 would give you a +6 to hit. So cat's grace and haste would help out with his to hit and haste would help others out also, you would be looking at a +9 to hit with your level 6 at this point. If you make his minion a halfling you would have another +2 over that(size and dex bonus). Hope this helps.