Good Superhero-Game?

[Seeten]

I don't agree. M&M is my second favorite system of all time...right behind the HERO line.

IME, M&M has 90% of the flexibility of HERO, and to its credit, is much easier to learn to play. However, I don't think all of its powers are properly balanced, and I have had occasional problems doing PC conversions where M&M just doesn't quite result in a truly equivalent PC. Additionally, M&M doesn't really model the "Mad-Dog Killer" archetype as easily due to its emphasis on a "PG" cinematic style of combat, wheras HERO can go from "G" to "X" (in terms of violence) quite easily.

That's NOT an indictment of the system, just an observation.

Going lethal in M&M certainly works for me in terms of Lethality. There are a number of suggestions for moving from grim and gritty to 4 color, dont assume the default 4 color style(which is the default comic style, also) to be all M&M can do.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I didn't say it was- I just said it was easier in HERO.

M&M rules start with a certain assumption of 4-color combat, and upping the lethality of the system requires a little work.

In HERO, it just requires that players design PCs with more HKAs and RKAs.

 

[Seeten]

In M&M, actually, you can purchase powers with lethal descriptors by default, no need to up anything. So in that respect, sounds identical.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Its similar, but not quite the same. In M&M (as I recall), your damage is either lethal or not.

But both Normal and Killing attacks in HERO do mixed damage (unless modified), but emphasize the damage differently. With a Normal attack, the primary damage is non-lethal, but some lethal damage may occur, while with a Killing attack, the amount of non-lethal damage is dependent upon the lethal damage done.

In addition, M&M retains (to a certain extent), the D20 prohibition against "stacking" bonuses...HERO doesn't do anything like that. If you've designed a PC with certain synergies, you won't worry about those synergies being gimped. Ever.

The tradeoff, though, is that HERO requires more math- a lot more. HERO is probably the most mathematically complex rpg to reach its level of popularity.

 

[Thotas]

I'm standing with Seeten on all of the back-and-forth you see above. And if the core book is faulty in any way, the Mastermind's Manual will take care of it for ya. The MaMa even provides a power (with a couple of extras and a limitation) that clearly and simply emulates that vaguest of all comics powers, the mutant hex of the Scarlet Witch.

It should also be mentioned that the Atomic Think Tank is at least as good a resource for M&M players as Enworld is for D&Ders. Rule questions answered by Steve Kenson, business questions answered by Nicole Lindroos and several adapt or create a character threads on the boards.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I agree, Thotas, The Mastermind's Manual is an excellent resource, and The Atomic Think Tank is a great group of people!

 

[Felon]

I didn't say it was- I just said it was easier in HERO.

M&M rules start with a certain assumption of 4-color combat, and upping the lethality of the system requires a little work.

In HERO, it just requires that players design PCs with more HKAs and RKAs.

The catch there being that it's easy enough to come by resistant defenses that a big metal claw just tends to scratch an opponent into unconsciousness with inflicting a point of BODY damage. That's just my experience anyway; it's another area where the comics differ radically from what's practical in the system. I've never seen a Champions character that lacked resistant defenses, although they're quite common in the comics.

Which is understandable, I suppose. I notice that the closest analogue HERO has to the Evasion ability is the Dive for Cover maneuver, which is actually a pretty lousy option to have to rely on to save one's bacon. Lob a couple of shrapnel grenades at HERO Spidey, and he's hurting.

 

[Seeten]

Its similar, but not quite the same. In M&M (as I recall), your damage is either lethal or not.

But both Normal and Killing attacks in HERO do mixed damage (unless modified), but emphasize the damage differently. With a Normal attack, the primary damage is non-lethal, but some lethal damage may occur, while with a Killing attack, the amount of non-lethal damage is dependent upon the lethal damage done.

In addition, M&M retains (to a certain extent), the D20 prohibition against "stacking" bonuses...HERO doesn't do anything like that. If you've designed a PC with certain synergies, you won't worry about those synergies being gimped. Ever.

The tradeoff, though, is that HERO requires more math- a lot more. HERO is probably the most mathematically complex rpg to reach its level of popularity.

This is incorrect. In M&M, by default, your power does either lethal or non-lethal, variable each time you use the power. Just like D&D, where at any time you can choose to do subdual. By default most heroes choose to use non-lethal, but any time I fire my matter cannon, I can choose to go lethal.

Sounds like in Hero, you can min/max to beat the system, and thus be more powerful than your powerlevel means for you to be. You are right, in M&M, you cannot "Beat the system" and stack more bonuses than your power level allows. If you feel your character should be better than all the other PC's, rather than being better at math, you'll need your DM to agree with you. Some might consider this a weakness, I consider it a strength.

 

[The Grackle]

I haven't played HERO in a long time, and I remember liking it a lot. I really liked making PCs as an exercise in crunchery or trying to mimick a power I envisioned precisely within the rules. However that was as a player. As a GM I freakin' love M&M. As far as the amount of prep work I have to do before a game and how much time I spend during a game doing math, M&M is on the opposite end of the spectrum from, let's say, high level D&D.

1. In M&M I make an NPC in about 15 minutes and each one fits easiily its on a 3x5 index card.

2. I can estimate the relative power/effectiveness of a villain vs. the PCs w/surprising accuracy, and even about how many rounds the fight is likely to last. (barring 1st round crits or something)

3. I use options so that I never have to make any rolls or do any calculations. I just shout out DCs to the players. The only thing I record is how many bruises the NPCs have taken. This probably doubles the speed of fights.

So comparing M&M to HERO for the the flexibility and detail of character builds, I don't know.
But from the other side of the screen, M&M is priceless.

 

[Felon]

It's nice having these M&M experts at hand while I'm trying to get a handle on the syste. If you'll be kind enough to indulge another question: does it seem odd that the benefits provided by ability score modifiers have been largely marginalized? Dex doesn't provide a bonus to Defense, Intelligence doesn't generate skill points At a glance, it seems feasible to neglect ability scores for characters that shouldn't--a 10 Int scientist, a 10 Dex martial artist, and so forth.

I also noticed that unlike True20, M&M still uses the D&D scaling of ability scores. Does that serve a purpose beyond providing a familiar scale?