Good Superhero-Game?

[ShinHakkaider]

Sorry- I wasn't clear.

In HERO, a default Normal attack does non-lethal damage, and may simultaneously do lethal damage, depending upon how much damage you do.

In HERO, certain kinds of specifically limited Normal attacks do non-lethal damage only.

In HERO, a default Killing attack does lethal and non-lethal damage simultaneously, the amount depending on the damage multiplier.

In HERO, certain kinds of specifically limited Killing attacks do lethal damage only.

However, in M&M, an attack may do lethal or non-lethal damage, but will not do so simultaneously.



No moreso than any other game. HERO has no "typed" bonuses- typically, (with the exception of combat bonuses) everything is bundled together when you build a power. If you're sophisticated enough a builder, you can design certain kinds of synergistic "cascades," but with a tradeoff. Your PC's main attack may be more powerful under "X" circumstance, but may become completely useless under many other cirucmstances. For example, I designed an alien "Brick" type PC with very high physical defenses and some nasty attacks. However, her energy defenses were no better than human maximums, and her nastiest ranged attack was in the form of a thrown "quarterstaff" that had to be recovered to use again...typically good only once per combat.



The main advantages of M&M as I see it:

1) Flexibility second only to HERO (and not by much)

2) Rules-light

3) Similarity to original D20- the most popular system in the world- will make it easier to find willing players.

Don't overlook that third advantage. It may be the most important one of all.

I love HERO system. I have a decent amount of 4th ed and 5th ed resources for it and If I could find more players I'd be playing it instead of M&M. But instead everybody wants to play M&M so I really dont have much of a choice. If I want ot play superheroes, I've got to play M&M. It sucks (not the game, the situation) , because gamers have a tendency to crap all over games that they dont like or may be a "threat" to "their favorite game".

I like M&M, for me it's a damn good gateway game, good for newbies to learn from, but I like the granular crunchiness of HERO. Character creation requires basic math skills. Multiplication, Division, addition and subtraction. That's it. If you made it out of 4th grade you can create a HERO character. I SUCKED at math and I was still able to grasp and create characters fairly easily. SO I dont get the snipes at the math in HERO, I really dont. These people apparently have not had to calculate travel distances and hyperspace jumps in Traveller then talk to me about math.

And yeah that familiarity / similarity to D20 was a BIG factor to M&M's popularity. The tweaks make it great for Supers, but the core that was used plays into it as well.

 

[shilsen]

Yeah, as soon as I heard about the talking dog, I knew it was him. Of course the Mexican Wrestler also solidified it with me... It's fun hearing about other people's games

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we're the only group out there with precisely that combo. I'm running Chris, the guy in the mystical Greek armor, who's effectively the straight man for all the rest's insanity. And the punching bag for 90% of Ruckus' (the dog) sarcasm and rudeness. I've never played a PC who's so persecuted. And it's entertaining as heck.

 

[Pseudonym]

Reading this thread, and a few summer movies, inspired me to purchase the 2nd edition of Mutants & Masterminds and Freedom City. I think I'll run it a bit more Tick than X-Men, but it'll make a fun alternative when our Eberron group has attendance issues.

Thanks to all for their input.

 

[Mallus]

And the punching bag for 90% of Ruckus' (the dog) sarcasm and rudeness. I've never played a PC who's so persecuted...

I wonder if Mike would give you Drawback: Teammates. Or barring that, Complication. We're at least worth a Complication.

 

[Seeten]

Reading this thread, and a few summer movies, inspired me to purchase the 2nd edition of Mutants & Masterminds and Freedom City. I think I'll run it a bit more Tick than X-Men, but it'll make a fun alternative when our Eberron group has attendance issues.

Thanks to all for their input.

You are very welcome. =)

 

[Felon]

I think this is ok. In the real world, whats wrong with an average int, average str average con person suddenly getting super powers? I think its great.

It's great if a character with all 10's is a viable character concept. It's not so great if it's clearly the most optimal path and that anyone creating their scientist or martial artist or what have you with appropriate ability score bonuses is handicapping themselves for flavor reasons. Players should not feel penalized for going with flavor.

I guess I'll just have to play the system some.

 

[Seeten]

It's great if a character with all 10's is a viable character concept. It's not so great if it's clearly the most optimal path and that anyone creating their scientist or martial artist or what have you with appropriate ability score bonuses is handicapping themselves for flavor reasons. Players should not feel penalized for going with flavor.

I guess I'll just have to play the system some.

Didn't my post above show that the int 10 scientist was clearly inferior? I thought it did.

An int 10 scientist with +13 science is basically a normal human, he knows a lot about science, maybe a normal, real world scientist level guy. He cant create anything new, or incredible, he cant beat the DC's to anything in the next level of tech, or what have you.

An int 42 scientist has a check in the +30's. They can beat DC's to make world beating death rays, and cure cancer, and make the blackbird.

A 10 int martial artist is slow. They are usually the last to act, they dont dodge effects very well, unless they blow a ton of points on reflex save, and if they do, they are still slow. They can take improved initiative for a +4, but thats slow in my supers game. Many speed characters have +10 and more, so they'll always be last. Aside from his slowness, he can take all the feats and base attack of a martial arts master. And if he fights someone else thats great at fighting, his only penalty will be...he is slower than they are. Its a drawback, but intense training can overcome it. Using what you are to the best of your ability.

Are there any dex 10 Martial Arts masters in the real world? Yes. My step-father was an Olympic Judoka. He's about as agile as a ...big unagile guy. He has little coordination. But he can wrap you up in a million holds and break your bones in a hundred ways in under 5 seconds. But, he's slow. Big, too.

2 points for 1 point of dex. Is it worth it? say you buy 20 points, for a 30, that gives you a +10 initiative, +10 reflex save, +10 acrobatics(good for a martial artist) +10 escape artist, +10 stealth, these are all things you could buy with pp instead, but thats 7.5 pp for those skills to that level, then 10 pp to buy up the reflex save, and 1 pp for imp init, and your still 6 init down, and you've saved 1.5 pp, and worse yet, you lose the +10 drive, the +10 pilot, the +10 disable device, open lock, and all other dex skills you may or may not want. In short, Dex does not short change your martial artist, BUT, nor is it the end all and be all ability, either. You CAN play a low dex martial artist and NOT be a gimp, if thats your concept.

I love that about M&M. Also on that subject, my father, (who I love dearly) is not a brilliant man. He's not even what I would call smart. But he is dedicated, and he works harder than anyone I know. He's a PhD in History, much like your scientist. I'd posit my father is a 10 int character, maybe 11, and he's at the pinnacle of his profession. So again, the 10 int scientist has real world analogues.(Unfortunately, unlike the martial artist, the 10 int scientist will not work in the game, as he wont be able to make anything useful in game with +13 skill.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Obviously we both like our pet systems, I just think the people who came in here complaining that M&M didnt model x y and z properly were obviously talking straight out of their hat.

I don't want you walking away thinking I'm an M&M basher because I think the game is brilliantly done- I just think HERO handles things slightly better.

Make no mistake- if I were to try to run a supers game today, like ShinHakkaider, I'd have to use M&M because my group is so pro-D20 its ridiculous. However, I don't think I'd have many problems doing so because the 1) M&M rocks, 2) it has lots of supplements, 3) almost anything I can't do with an M&M supplement I can use a HERO supplement with a modicum of conversion and 4) M&M rocks.

The shinking Ray that shrunk the bottled city of Kandor was his creation as well I think.

Actually, that was captured from Braniac.

Braniac had been stealing cities from various planets (I don't recall why), and Kandor of Krypton was one of them. After being rescued from Braniac by Supes, the Kandorians decided to stay miniaturized until Supes could find them a new, permanent home for their city.

I dont get the snipes at the math in HERO, I really dont. These people apparently have not had to calculate travel distances and hyperspace jumps in Traveller then talk to me about math.

IME, snipers fall into 2 categories: those who have never played the game and have merely perused the book and those who HAVE played the game and dislike the amount, not difficulty, of the math that needs to be done in PC creation.

 

[buzz]

IME, snipers fall into 2 categories: those who have never played the game and have merely perused the book and those who HAVE played the game and dislike the amount, not difficulty, of the math that needs to be done in PC creation.

In all fairness, I think that detractors who point to issues related to the "layered currency" used in chargen, and some other math-related aspects of point-spending have a reasonable position. HERO is fairly long in the tooth, and even I, a raging fanboy, don't think it's perfect. There are breakpoints and strategies, and common habits that set in.

That said, I've seen a lot more examples of how HERO is flawed in concept than I have how it's flawed in actual play. I.e., I've been in a jillion threads where someone is able to biuld something that is obviously not balanced, but I can't say I ever see the same examples happen in my HERO group or the adventures run at cons.

I would again recommend the thread at the Forge I posted earlier. There's a lot of insightful commentary, positive and negative, about HERO and how it's commonly played. I found it very useful.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I've been in a jillion threads where someone is able to biuld something that is obviously not balanced, but I can't say I ever see the same examples happen in my HERO group or the adventures run at cons.

I'm not slavishly devoted to the concept of balanced PCs, personally. I've played enough games, HERO included, where unbalanced PCs (here, meaning that some PCs are much more powerful in combat than others) actually made the game fun, or at least in no way detracted from players' enjoyment.

In other words, I have seen PCs that were not balanced re their fellow partymembers in HERO. It just didn't seem to affect the "fun" equation because everyone was playing the exact PC that they wanted to play.