Good Superhero-Game?

[Seeten]

Hey Felon:

Well, Strength gives you damage DC's of course, so it isnt neglectable. For a Brick. For others, neglectable.

Dex gives initiative, and Reflex saves, which are both important, but, neglectable if that isnt your thing.

Int increases your skills. This isnt something I can stress enough. My character, a Super Intelligent Iron Man type, has only 1 super power. Incredible intellect. With my 42 int(yes, thats a PL 11 character) I have a +35 computer skill check. That means, with a single feat, (allowing me to take 10 on 4 different skill checks, craft, craft, computers, repair) I can beat a 45 DC anytime I want. That means I can hack the IRS Dbase without breaking a sweat, craft a new suit of power armor, or make the Blackbird, whenever I like. Very useful. However, if you arent a super int type, who cares? Skip it.

Wisdom is for will saves and skills like Notice. Noticing stuff is quite useful, and will saves are very handy. I have a wisdom of 10. (and a mental protection helmet. =P) So if you arent wise, skip it.

Constitution improves fort saves and toughness saves, and is thus very useful for improving saves. However, you can just up the saves themselves for the same cost. This means you get to choose if you character is a super tough brick, or just very powerful/able to resist effects for some other reason...like he's an alien. or his mutant power is resistance to con saves and lucky, so that toughness effects just miss him. IOW, this one is also neglectable, but useful.

Charisma affects all your face skills. Skills are very useful, by the by, and several feats benefit from Charisma, like fearsome presence, etc. Neglectable, but for charismatic types, its great.

Now, that said, lets take a look at a standard superhero...

say Human Torch.

Str? Normal Human. 10
Dex?Normal Human. 14
Con?Normal Human. 10
Int? Normal Human. 10
Wis?Normal Human. 8
Cha?Normal Human. 16

As with many superheroes, Human Torch is defined by his powers, not his incredible attributes. You'll find in comics, this is very often the case. He has spent a total of 8 pp on attributes, and FF4 are probably PL15, so he probably has 225 or so.

My character, in her battlesuit, is like this:

Str: 42(Super Strength 4)
Dex: 10
Con: 10
Int: 42
Wis: 10
Cha 16

cha is for flavor, Str is an Alternate power of the battlesuits blast, and Int is her only mutant power. I believe I one of only 2 in our group with a super attribute, but I am also the only one who is GOOD at any skills.

So to summarize, STR and CON are for fighting, one for offense one for defense, DEX is for defense, skills and initiative, and INT, WIS, CHA are basically for skills only.

One last point, though, skills are very powerful, but totally unnecessary, which means if you neglect them and go with powers, you'll make it on your powers, but the skill person has their own schtick also.

I really like how M&M 2nd took the focus off super attribs, actually. I think the attribs are basically balanced now.(and str costs the same as blast, to do the same dmg as blast now)

To specifically deal with your 10 int scientist, lets say PL 11 so we can put it side by side with my character, you can have 13 ranks in science, so you have a +13 science check. If I have 1 skill rank in science, my check is +16, due to my intellect. I think that says it all. If I go 13 ranks deep, I am at +29 and you are at +13, and honestly, if Galactus attacks and you want to create the Universal Nullifier, well, +13 isnt gonna do it

 

[The Grackle]

does it seem odd that the benefits provided by ability score modifiers have been largely marginalized? Dex doesn't provide a bonus to Defense, Intelligence doesn't generate skill points At a glance, it seems feasible to neglect ability scores for characters that shouldn't--a 10 Int scientist, a 10 Dex martial artist, and so forth.

It is odd, and it's a little couter intuitive after playing other games, but it's not really bad.

I believe the idea behind it is that some abilities in d20/d&d are just straight up better than others, and they wanted to even them out more. Most abilities do 2 things: give a bonus to appropriate skills, and give bonus to a save. STR gives a bonus to damage instead of a save. CON doesn't add to any skills but it does add to 2 saves toughness and fortitude, and also recovery checks. INT and CHA still kinda suck, but what are you gonna do?

The scientist and martial artist would still buy up their abilities if only for the skills.

I also noticed that unlike True20, M&M still uses the D&D scaling of ability scores. Does that serve a purpose beyond providing a familiar scale?

Familiar and it effectively makes ea. +1 bonus cost 2pp (1pp for skills and 1pp for save). 1pp per each +1 bonus is sort of the foundation of the balancing act. A good/useful ability might cost more (2pp = +1 for attack or defense) or a less usefull/more specific ability might cost less (1pp= +4 to Init., or 1pp = 4 skill ranks).

If you like mechanics, you can rip stuff apart and kinda figure out how things are priced and why, or if -- like my players -- you just want to make a character and smash stuff, there are enough 'pre-assembled' powers to work with.

Me, I can't wait to get the mastermind's manual.

 

[Felon]

As with many superheroes, Human Torch is defined by his powers, not his incredible attributes. You'll find in comics, this is very often the case.

True, hence my reservations as to how D20 Modern, with its base classes that revolve around ability scores, would emulate characters like the Torch in its now-stillborn Spectaculars setting. They'd most likely have to go to a point-based system.

My concern is largely that players will wind up with a massive-or-nothing approach to their characters' ability scores, and that there will be a kot of clear-cut cost-effective approach to building a character (such as whether or not to buy up Con or just buy up Tough and Fort saves) rather than a more ideal situation where each decision has its own advantages and disadvantages.

I'd like to see more feats that make an ability score more useful. For instance, Inspire and Master Plan both reward investments in ability scores, not saves or powers. Off-hand, I don't see a lot of love for Dexterity feats (Acrobatic Bluff, I guess).

I believe the idea behind it is that some abilities in d20/d&d are just straight up better than others, and they wanted to even them out more.

In some ways, I think it's a really good thing. The Beast is stronger and more agile than Captain America and Wolverine, but that doesn't make him a better fighter.

 

[Seeten]

True, hence my reservations as to how D20 Modern, with its base classes that revolve around ability scores, would emulate characters like the Torch in its now-stillborn Spectaculars setting. They'd most likely have to go to a point-based system.

My concern is largely that players will wind up with a massive-or-nothing approach to their characters' ability scores, and that there will be a kot of clear-cut cost-effective approach to building a character (such as whether or not to buy up Con or just buy up Tough and Fort saves) rather than a more ideal situation where each decision has its own advantages and disadvantages.

I'd like to see more feats that make an ability score more useful. For instance, Inspire and Master Plan both reward investments in ability scores, not saves or powers. Off-hand, I don't see a lot of love for Dexterity feats (Acrobatic Bluff, I guess).

I think this is ok. In the real world, whats wrong with an average int, average str average con person suddenly getting super powers? I think its great.

If you want to be batman, you go and drop 10 pp on every attribute, but if not, I mean, how smart is Superman, really? 12? How wise is Flash? 10? I think we have this D&D mentality, leading us to want to be BIGGER, STRONGER, FASTER via our attributes, but that isnt comic books. You wanna be bigger? Growth. Stronger? Str + Super Strength. Faster? Quickness + Super Speed. Attributes are good for skills, and I think thats intuitive to a supers game, but not so much to a d20 game, mostly because D&D has this ingrained sense that big attributes = good characters.

Well, in M&M big attributes are good, but so are 10's across the board. To wit, however, a character with 30 for every attribute is not a bad character. Its actually pretty powerful, and a character who spends those same 100 pp on powers is also powerful. Both of those characters can hit the +attack +defense +dmg and +tough caps, so they are both solidly PL10, or what have you, leaving you with the flavor of an average guy/girl with amazing powers, or a guy/girl super in every way.

Note the super powered person doesnt have a default of +10 notice, +10 sense motive, +10 gather info, +10 bluff, +10 to every single other skill, though. And the 30 in every attribute guy has +10 will saves, +10 reflex saves, +10 initiative, +10 fort save +10 toughness save, and a myriad of other advantages. PL10 character max out at 15 will/fort/ref save, so for 15 more points you're maxed on all saves. thats 115 points, leaving you 35 more for skills and feats and attack/defense.

I think the above example illustrates that attributes are useful, but not overpowered or underpowered.

Also, my 42 int wunderkind has Master Plan. She creates a Master Plan on a natural 1. =)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In M&M, by default, your power does either lethal or non-lethal, variable each time you use the power. Just like D&D, where at any time you can choose to do subdual. By default most heroes choose to use non-lethal, but any time I fire my matter cannon, I can choose to go lethal.

Sorry- I wasn't clear.

In HERO, a default Normal attack does non-lethal damage, and may simultaneously do lethal damage, depending upon how much damage you do.

In HERO, certain kinds of specifically limited Normal attacks do non-lethal damage only.

In HERO, a default Killing attack does lethal and non-lethal damage simultaneously, the amount depending on the damage multiplier.

In HERO, certain kinds of specifically limited Killing attacks do lethal damage only.

However, in M&M, an attack may do lethal or non-lethal damage, but will not do so simultaneously.

Sounds like in Hero, you can min/max to beat the system, and thus be more powerful than your powerlevel means for you to be.

No moreso than any other game. HERO has no "typed" bonuses- typically, (with the exception of combat bonuses) everything is bundled together when you build a power. If you're sophisticated enough a builder, you can design certain kinds of synergistic "cascades," but with a tradeoff. Your PC's main attack may be more powerful under "X" circumstance, but may become completely useless under many other cirucmstances. For example, I designed an alien "Brick" type PC with very high physical defenses and some nasty attacks. However, her energy defenses were no better than human maximums, and her nastiest ranged attack was in the form of a thrown "quarterstaff" that had to be recovered to use again...typically good only once per combat.

So comparing M&M to HERO for the the flexibility and detail of character builds, I don't know.
But from the other side of the screen, M&M is priceless.

The main advantages of M&M as I see it:

1) Flexibility second only to HERO (and not by much)

2) Rules-light

3) Similarity to original D20- the most popular system in the world- will make it easier to find willing players.

Don't overlook that third advantage. It may be the most important one of all.

If you want to be batman, you go and drop 10 pp on every attribute, but if not, I mean, how smart is Superman, really? 12? How wise is Flash? 10?

Well, if you read the source material over time, it has been said that Superman is actually very smart- at least as smart as the smartest human being...but he doesn't exactly use his mind wisely 100% of the time. He has proven himself quite adept with kryptonian technology, but has not delved deeply into exploring human tech. He has, however, aided the guys at Star Laboratories from time to time. I would say he's more of an engineer than a scientist.

 

[Seeten]

12 gives him an IQ around 120, which is pretty smart, actually. Different writers typically write in different levels of smarts, too, but the typical Supes doesnt exactly knock my socks off with his brilliance. He doesnt come up with tactical plans like Batman, for example. I agree the DC Who's Who says he's a genius for example, I just see very little in-comic evidence of it. I tend to err on the side of "What he's done in the comic, lately" as a new writer may suddenly remove his adamantium, or cause him to drop his mystical hammer, or turn into a grey version of himself, etc. Heh.

Also I dont see it as an advantage at all that lethal attacks in hero also do subdual and vice versa. Champions had that same RKA/HKA and it never hooked me as a great mechanic.

Obviously we both like our pet systems, I just think the people who came in here complaining that M&M didnt model x y and z properly were obviously talking straight out of their hat.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Let me put it this way. The group of PCs in my current M&M game consist of the following:

* A speedster who flies by whirling rapidly
* A 'tank' who gains his powers from a number of artifacts used by epic Greek heroes
* A talking dog with a super-genius alien symbiote which has regeneration and teleportation powers
* The Egyptian god of Mexican Wrestling (yes, you read that right), who flies around on the flaming chariot of Ramon-Ra and has a number of special wrestling moves that let him nullify, snare, dazzle and throw enemies

And the system let us model every one of those concepts easily.

I don't suppose you play with David Gildea by any chance, do you? Unless you ARE him

Tell him ARCHIE the Warforged says "Hi"

 

[shilsen]

I don't suppose you play with David Gildea by any chance, do you? Unless you ARE him

Tell him ARCHIE the Warforged says "Hi"

Yup. David's the dog

And I'll deliver the message.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Yup. David's the dog

And I'll deliver the message.

Yeah, as soon as I heard about the talking dog, I knew it was him. Of course the Mexican Wrestler also solidified it with me... It's fun hearing about other people's games

 

[ShinHakkaider]

12 gives him an IQ around 120, which is pretty smart, actually. Different writers typically write in different levels of smarts, too, but the typical Supes doesnt exactly knock my socks off with his brilliance. He doesnt come up with tactical plans like Batman, for example. I agree the DC Who's Who says he's a genius for example, I just see very little in-comic evidence of it. I tend to err on the side of "What he's done in the comic, lately" as a new writer may suddenly remove his adamantium, or cause him to drop his mystical hammer, or turn into a grey version of himself, etc. Heh.

Superman has built a Phantom Zone ray, he's built robit duplicates of himself, he also built and maintained all of the techology in the Fortress of Solitude including the technology that keeps all of those alien creatures in his zoo. The shinking Ray that shrunk the bottled city of Kandor was his creation as well I think. That was Silver Age Superman of course and not the recent incarnation. But you were citing DC's Who's Who which is pretty old, just post crisis I think.

To say that he's not that smart because he's not a tactical genius like Batman is unfair. By that same example Iron Man isnt a genius because he cant put together a tactical plan like Capt America or Reed Richards isnt a genius becasue he doesnt have Nick Fury's know how of how to manipulate a battlefeild. There are different types of intelligence, just becasue you youre a genius at cybernetics doesnt mean youre instantly a genius at spatial relations or battlefeild tactics.