Grade the Pathfinder 2E Game System

[Thomas Shey]

Agreed. I could see someone that is put off by a 600+ page rulebook being receptive to trying a 400ish page book, but the game hasn’t changed so much in mechanics that if you bounced off the original game, the Remaster probably still isn’t for you.

Yeah, if you don't like the balance math, the rebalancing of caster/non-caster (and how it was done0 or the need to actually engage heavily with the game system when playing, nothing will make you like it more now.

 

[Justice and Rule]

No, I don't need to do all of that, and I can (and did) drop some.
But ultimately I want to be able to do a bit more of that than PF2E really allows, it makes character builds feel very constrained, especially because it feels like I am sacrificing combat competence vs non-combat/social competence.

<emphasis mine>

Uh, what? How are you sacrificing combat competence? Athletics and maybe Acrobatics are the only "combat" skills, with the former being the most important and being something you basically get automatically from the class. All other skills for social stuff have good uses in combat as well, so choosing social skills really doesn't sacrifice combat competence at all. The vast majority of combat stuff is found in class feats and the class structure itself, not really attached to skill feats and such.

Like, what do you think you are sacrificing? What is your build? I'm very confused by where this is going, because it really doesn't feel like it applies to 2E that much.

 

[Thomas Shey]

<emphasis mine>

Uh, what? How are you sacrificing combat competence? Athletics and maybe Acrobatics are the only "combat" skills,

Yeah, there are a few other skills for some builds that have combat applications, but those are usually social skills like Intimidate or Deception.

Stealth maybe? Though usually the kinds of things that benefit from that strongly aren't primarily Fighter based.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Yeah, there are a few other skills for some builds that have combat applications, but those are usually social skills like Intimidate or Deception.

Stealth maybe? Though usually the kinds of things that benefit from that strongly aren't primarily Fighter based.

Society, I suppose? Recall Knowledge is more useful in the Remaster, but I can understand maybe seeing that as less of a combat skill. But also I don't think there's any sort of sacrificing of "combat competency" here because Athletics is basically one skill that you can keep up pretty easily. I think there are choices to make in your not-combat skills, but that's a different argument to have.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Society, I suppose? Recall Knowledge is more useful in the Remaster, but I can understand maybe seeing that as less of a combat skill. But also I don't think there's any sort of sacrificing of "combat competency" here because Athletics is basically one skill that you can keep up pretty easily. I think there are choices to make in your not-combat skills, but that's a different argument to have.

I was thinking more of a corner-case where your operating procedure needed, say, Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth and Deception, and the class you were coming from didn't have a lot of skill advances to work from.

I just don't know of a case where that's true; there are setups where maybe three of those would be important, but they're usually Rogue based, and they have skill advances to burn.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I was thinking more of a corner-case where your operating procedure needed, say, Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth and Deception, and the class you were coming from didn't have a lot of skill advances to work from.

I just don't know of a case where that's true; there are setups where maybe three of those would be important, but they're usually Rogue based, and they have skill advances to burn.

Yeah, that'd be a bit more difficult to keep them all advancing at a rate to keep up with the advancing level DCs. But it feels like at that point we're talking less about something inherent to the system and more about the intent of how a specific class was built; the Fighter wasn't meant to be a skill monkey, that's the job of the Bard/Rogue/Investigator/etc.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, that'd be a bit more difficult to keep them all advancing at a rate to keep up with the advancing level DCs. But it feels like at that point we're talking less about something inherent to the system and more about the intent of how a specific class was built; the Fighter wasn't meant to be a skill monkey, that's the job of the Bard/Rogue/Investigator/etc.

At the very least my response would be "And why are you playing a class system again?"

 

[Staffan]

Yeah, that'd be a bit more difficult to keep them all advancing at a rate to keep up with the advancing level DCs. But it feels like at that point we're talking less about something inherent to the system and more about the intent of how a specific class was built; the Fighter wasn't meant to be a skill monkey, that's the job of the Bard/Rogue/Investigator/etc.

Falling behind on skills is definitely an issue I have with PF2, and it's one I've been fairly vocal about. But it's a result of a conscious decision to have skill DCs challenge those characters who focus heavily on those skills and leave those who don't behind, as opposed to challenging dabblers and let competent characters be awesome. It's not the choice I would have made, but I recognize that it's the choice that actually was made.

The problem is made somewhat bigger by having certain things have DCs inflated even above the general level-based DCs – notably typical rogue areas: sneaking (because creatures have inflated Perception because that's used for initiative), hazards, and picking locks.

Oh, and the PF2 bard is not a skill monkey. It gets the same measly skill allocation as most other classes. They start with a little more, but they still only get one skill increase every other level.

 

[Aldarc]

BA is great, it's the skill system in 5E that leaves much to be desired.

BA can be great, depending on the game or the design goals. I feel like there are so many tabletop games out there that do "BA" better than 5e that I am always so surprised to see it praised. But I also don't think that BA should be the ideal for all tabletop games. IMHO, there is a place for the epic style progression of 3e-4e and PF1-2.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Falling behind on skills is definitely an issue I have with PF2, and it's one I've been fairly vocal about. But it's a result of a conscious decision to have skill DCs challenge those characters who focus heavily on those skills and leave those who don't behind, as opposed to challenging dabblers and let competent characters be awesome. It's not the choice I would have made, but I recognize that it's the choice that actually was made.

The problem is made somewhat bigger by having certain things have DCs inflated even above the general level-based DCs – notably typical rogue areas: sneaking (because creatures have inflated Perception because that's used for initiative), hazards, and picking locks.

Yeah. I will say that one of the things they really did away with in the Skill Feats to make them much easier to use is the plethora of "You can do this, but at -2" conditions that were all over a bunch of feats. But in general I think the idea of always going with "level-appropriate" feats is a bad way to do the game and both GMs and designers should focus on doing naturalistic DCs so that those with some-but-not-maximum investment can do things as well.

Oh, and the PF2 bard is not a skill monkey. It gets the same measly skill allocation as most other classes. They start with a little more, but they still only get one skill increase every other level.

Ah dang, I knew I'd get one wrong.