grapple rules

[Sebastian Francis]

I'm still confused, which isn't surprising. My main question still remains...does an owlbear (for example) get three grapple rolls to inflict subdual damage, or only one?

My next question would then be: if only one, whats the point of a bear grappling? I ask this because it's come up a few times and going through the whole rigamarol of grappling just so that you can lose most of your attacks, do less damage and it's subdual all at the same time seems disadvatageous to me. IE bad Dungeon master strategy.

One point of grappling in D&D is the same point of doing it in real life: you make it more difficult for your opponent to hit you. He's too busy struggling with your grapple to get a clean shot at you (in D&D terms, he has to make opposed grapple checks rather than just attack you).

I would also add that grappling with an attractive young women is far more enjoyable than grappling with an owlbear...not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[Rugger]

My next question would then be: if only one, whats the point of a bear grappling? I ask this because it's come up a few times and going through the whole rigamarol of grappling just so that you can lose most of your attacks, do less damage and it's subdual all at the same time seems disadvatageous to me. IE bad Dungeon master strategy.

But grappling is in the Bears favor...

Bear roars up to greatsword wielding fighter and grabs him. Fighter now must drop the greatsword (worthless in a grapple) and make a grapple check to even try to draw a light weapon OR make the opposing grapple check to try and get out...either way, the bear just made life safer for itself. The bear then takes all its normal attacks at the fighter (at -4 to hit) cause all its natural attacks are usable in the grapple.


-Rugger

 

[glass]

I'm still confused, which isn't surprising. My main question still remains...does an owlbear (for example) get three grapple rolls to inflict subdual damage, or only one?

I'd say only one. If it comes down to Hypersmurf against the Sage, I'd back Hyp's ruling every time.

My next question would then be: if only one, whats the point of a bear grappling? I ask this because it's come up a few times and going through the whole rigamarol of grappling just so that you can lose most of your attacks, do less damage and it's subdual all at the same time seems disadvatageous to me.

He doesn't have to do subdual damage: he can use one of his natural weapons to do real damage (unlike the greatsword weilding fighter he has grabbed, who probably doesn't have any natural weapons).


glass.

 

[Nail]

"He doesn't have to do subdual damage: he can use one of his natural weapons to do real damage..."

This is key. Monsters don't do subdual! Good grief: They have claws for crying out loud!

 

[RigaMortus2]

I had a similiar question regarding what attacks a Dolgaunt (monster from the Eberron CS) can do after they grapple.

Here is the vital info on the Dolgaunt:

Base Attack Bonus: +1/+3
Attack: Tentacle +3 melee (1d3+2)
Full Attack: 2 tentacles +3 melee (1d3+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with tentacles)

They do not have any special grapple abilities (such as Improved Grab or Improved Grapple). They do however do "automatic" Con damage if they are grappling an opponent.

The picture of this creature resembles a zombie with two fleshy tentacles prodturding from it's shoulders. So it has arms, hands and even claws (according to the picture) even though those attacks are not represented in the Attack progression listed above.

The Dolgaunt uses it's tentacle to grapple a PC that is 10 feet away. Since there is no Improved Grab or Grapple, the PC would normally be allowed an AoO. However, since the Dolgaunt is 10 feet away and not in the PCs threat range, they do not get the AoO (this was my ruling). Also, normally when you grapple you move into the opponents square. Given the situation, I ruled that the DolGaunt used it's tentacle to instead pull the PC into it's square. So now we have a PC in a grapple with a Dolgaunt.

1) How is the opponent grappled? Does the Dolgaunt use both tentacles or just one tentacle to maintain the grapple?

2) Can the Dolgaunt then use it's regular arms to maintain the grapple (even though it's not represented as having any other attacks besides tentacles in the stat block)? Can it use it's regular arms deal damage while the tentacle(s) continue to grapple.

3) If another PC approaches the Dolgaunt, and thus would move through it's 10 ft. of reach, would the Dolgaunt get to make an AoO on the PC, or would both it's tentacles be busy in the grapple? This goes back to question # 1.

4) What if this was a Giant or a Collosal humanoid like a Titan. If a creature is so big that it could pick you up in one hand, when it grapples you, can it grapple you using just one hand (leaving the other hand free to attack others) or does it still require you to grapple with both?

5) Are there any rules anywhere which states how many arms (or other limbs) you need to use to maintain a grapple? How would a Thri-kreen grapple? Would it have to use all 4 arms? How about a Giant Octopus?

 

[Voadam]

Here is how we've interpreted it.

You can still do a full attack while grappling, just not with two-weapons (because it is specifically forbidden). If you grapple for damage (no attack roll just opposed grapple roll for damage) then you are trading in your attack from the full attack to do the grapple for damage and.

We've interpreted the BAB and iterative references as simply referring to the standard character who has iterative attacks and no natural weapons.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Here's how I would have done it.

The Dolgaunt uses it's tentacle to grapple a PC that is 10 feet away.

The dolgaunt cannot use its tentacles to grapple, because it lacks the appropriate special ability (Improved Grab (Ex): On an successful attack with a tentacle, etc...).

Similarly, a PC wielding a longspear cannot grapple at 10' range.

Also, normally when you grapple you move into the opponents square. Given the situation, I ruled that the DolGaunt used it's tentacle to instead pull the PC into it's square. So now we have a PC in a grapple with a Dolgaunt.

I'd've had them meet halfway, if I didnt have the dolgaunt move into the PC's square. The problem you encounter, by ruling as you did, is that anyone threatening someone who is grappling gains an AoO for that creature's movement.

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

Note that the ability to pull an opponent into your own square, rather than moving into his, is a benefit of the improved grab special ability:

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space.

Okay, so the PC is in a grapple with the Dolgaunt, however erroneously he got there...

1) How is the opponent grappled? Does the Dolgaunt use both tentacles or just one tentacle to maintain the grapple?

The dolgaunt uses its entire body - tentacles, hands, feet, legs, etc. - to maintain the grapple.

2) Can the Dolgaunt then use it's regular arms to maintain the grapple (even though it's not represented as having any other attacks besides tentacles in the stat block)? Can it use it's regular arms deal damage while the tentacle(s) continue to grapple.

It is using it's regular arms to maintain the grapple. It's regular arms can deal damage the same way any other grappled creature can use its arms while grappled: to make an opposed grapple check, to attack with a natural or light weapon (at a -4 penalty), or to draw a magic item.

3) If another PC approaches the Dolgaunt, and thus would move through it's 10 ft. of reach, would the Dolgaunt get to make an AoO on the PC, or would both it's tentacles be busy in the grapple? This goes back to question # 1.

Tentacles are busy.

4) What if this was a Giant or a Collosal humanoid like a Titan. If a creature is so big that it could pick you up in one hand, when it grapples you, can it grapple you using just one hand (leaving the other hand free to attack others) or does it still require you to grapple with both?

The rule is that creatures with Improved Grab may voluntarily take a -20 penalty to their grapple checks for a round and consider themselves ungrappled - thus, they'd threaten an area, could full-attack normally, etc.

Some people house rule this to state that any creature who is grappling may take the penalty and remain ungrappled.

Otherwise, you use all of your available bulk, limbs, etc., to grapple a single opponent.

5) Are there any rules anywhere which states how many arms (or other limbs) you need to use to maintain a grapple? How would a Thri-kreen grapple? Would it have to use all 4 arms? How about a Giant Octopus?

All of them. Unless you take the -20 penalty, in which case you only use the limb which started the grapple to begin with.

Thus, a giant octopus which does not take the -20 penalty is assumed to be wrapping all of its arms around its victim. Should it wish to wrap a single arm around a creature, and use its remaining 7 against other threats, it would be at a -20 penalty on the grapple check with its single arm to constrict.

Should it then decide to try an improved grab with any of those attacks, it will still be at a -20 penalty.