Grapple

[RJSmalls]

It seems simple enough, I know, but I was wondering if someone could give me a roll-by-roll breakdown of a grapple in combat? The stuff that confuses me is the "move in" and "pin" and what-not. Do these all happen during the same round that the grapple is begun?

That is, if I want to start a grapple, do I make a touch attack (to grab my opponent), then make a grapple check (to see if I start the grapple), and then move into his square (is this mandatory?), and/or then deliver damage, pin, carry him, etc.

Help me?

RJ

 

[Destil]

It seems simple enough, I know, but I was wondering if someone could give me a roll-by-roll breakdown of a grapple in combat? The stuff that confuses me is the "move in" and "pin" and what-not. Do these all happen during the same round that the grapple is begun?

That is, if I want to start a grapple, do I make a touch attack (to grab my opponent),

Yes. You provoke an AoO first. If you take damage you can't make this melee touch attack to grab. Making the grab is an attack action, and you can make more than one as if making extra attacks (only with a full attack, of course).

then make a grapple check (to see if I start the grapple),

Yes, you make an opposed grapple role. If you win you deal unarmed strike damage and you have started the grapple, if you loose you fail to start the grapple.

and then move into his square (is this mandatory?),

In order to mantain the grapple, yes. If you don't, all you can do is grab, hold and deal unarmed damage. Then the grapple would end: you woudn't be grappling with your opponent afterwords.

and/or then deliver damage, pin, carry him, etc.

Now (after you've moved in, provoking AoOs as normal from anyone except your grappling opponent for your movement) You can do any number of things as attack actions (thus the number of times per round depends on how many attacks you get) by winning an opposed grapple roll:

*deal unarmed damage
*pin your opponent (everyone else gets a +4 to hit them)
*break a pin by anyone you're grappling
*escape the grapple

You can make attacks with light weapons while grappling

You can take a standard actoion to use the escape artist skill to escape a grapple (escape artist check vs. opposed grapple roll)

You can cast a spell with no somatic components and with material or focus components in hand. The spell must have a cast time of one action or less.


In the end it's like this:

1) Make touch attack to Grab (as an attack)
1a) provokes an AoO. If you take damage this grapple attempt ends

2) Make an opposed grapple check to hold. If the opponent wins this grapple check ends. If you win you deal unarmed damage. (part of the attack in #1)

3) Move into their square, provoking AoOs from everyone except the opponent you're now grappling. If you don't this grapple attemp ends.

4) While grappling -

4a) Damage opponent by winning an opposed grapple roll (as an attack)

4b) Pin an opponent by winning an opposed grapple roll (as an attack)

4c) Break an pin someone you're grappling with is holding by winning an opposed grapple roll (as an attack)

4d) Escape the grapple by winning an opposed grapple roll (as an attack)

4e) Attack with a light weapon (as an attack)

4f) Cast a still spell (if you have the M/F components in hand). Cast time must be 1 action or less (depends on spells cast time, either free or standard action, usualy)

4g) Wriggle free by winning an escape artist check vs. opposed grapple roll (standard action)

5) While Pinned - Immoble, others have a +4 to hit you

5a) Break the pin by winning an opposed grapple check (as an attack)



The only thing I'm uncertian about, setting it all down in writing, is how the movement is counted... there's nothing in it that I can see in either the PH or the FAQ....

 

[RJSmalls]

Nice

Destil

That was as good a response as I could have hoped for. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

It's odd that one can make a grapple check if an enemy provokes an AoO, since a successful grapple allows a 5' movement. Normally you'd think you would be unable to move since it's not your turn, but your opponent's.

Thanks again!

RJ

 

[Lord Zardoz]

A few questions of my own

While I have no problems understanding the way a typical grapple would progress, I do have one situation that confuses me.

Lets say that you want to have a Troll or Ghoul grapple an opponent. Both get two claw attacks per round, and one bite attack. This creates a few questions.

1) The Two Claws
If a ghoul starts a grapple on the first claw attack, what happens with the second claw? Do we assume that the ghoul is already using both hands and loses the 2nd claw attack as long as he is grappling? Do we apply damage from both claws every time the ghoul deals damage?

1a) Trolls and Rend
Most monsters that have similar attacks to a Trolls Rend attack have improved grab. With those monsters, every time the grapple succeeds, it can perform whatever special attack it has available to it. The Troll does not have improved grab, but it does say that when both claws hit, it may rend. Should a troll score Rend damage every time it succeeds a grapple check to inflict damage?

2) Grapple and Bite Attacks
Lets assume for the moment that unlike the purple worm, most creatures typically do not grapple with their mouths. For creatures like Ghouls and Trolls, can the troll still perform bite attacks? Do the bites automatically hit and inflict damage on each grapple check? Or does the Ghoul make attack rolls, and if so do they get a bonus to hit?

3) Bab of Claw / Claw / Bite monsters:
One last thing, for things like Lions, Bears, and Trolls, the bonus for a claw attack is often at a different bonus to hit then the bite attack. Since the MM does not give base attack bonus for most monsters, what bonus should be used for the grapple checks?

For question three, I have been using the attack bonus for the attack that started the grapple. But since this topic has been brought up, I figure I may as well ask. Odds are that I am not the only one who is not entirely clear on that problem.

Depending on the answers to these questions, Trolls may be a true horror when grappled (auto hit for two claws, a bite and a rend for every successful grapple to inflict damage).

END COMMUNICATION

 

[ZR]

a character tries to escape a battle and runs through a treatened square prevoking an AOO. Other combatants don't want the person to escape. Can the AOO be a grapple? If so would prevoke an AOO itself or is this ignored in this case?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Can the AOO be a grapple?

Yes.

If so would prevoke an AOO itself?

Yes.

-Hyp.

 

[ZR]

OK (from a game a few weeks ago) An ogre mage runs past a PC and the PC gets an AOO and chooses to grapple. The ogre now gets an AOO because the PC is grappling. The ogre chooses to push the PC aside or trip etc the PC (who has already used their aoo gets none unless they have the feat that alows them to do more than one AOO. If the ogre sucessfully trips etc it keeps going.

If they both had the feat they the AOO would bounce back and forth untill they exaused the dex mod. But if the ogre then moves into another square and enteres the same situation would it have used only one AOO or does the rally with the previous PC count for the lot???

 

[Hypersmurf]

If they both had the feat they the AOO would bounce back and forth untill they exaused the dex mod.

No, because you only get one AoO per opponent per round.

-Hyp.

 

[ZR]

oh!

thanks

 

[Destil]

Re: A few questions of my own

While I have no problems understanding the way a typical grapple would progress, I do have one situation that confuses me.

Lets say that you want to have a Troll or Ghoul grapple an opponent. Both get two claw attacks per round, and one bite attack. This creates a few questions.

1) The Two Claws
If a ghoul starts a grapple on the first claw attack, what happens with the second claw? Do we assume that the ghoul is already using both hands and loses the 2nd claw attack as long as he is grappling? Do we apply damage from both claws every time the ghoul deals damage?

1a) Trolls and Rend
Most monsters that have similar attacks to a Trolls Rend attack have improved grab. With those monsters, every time the grapple succeeds, it can perform whatever special attack it has available to it. The Troll does not have improved grab, but it does say that when both claws hit, it may rend. Should a troll score Rend damage every time it succeeds a grapple check to inflict damage?

2) Grapple and Bite Attacks
Lets assume for the moment that unlike the purple worm, most creatures typically do not grapple with their mouths. For creatures like Ghouls and Trolls, can the troll still perform bite attacks? Do the bites automatically hit and inflict damage on each grapple check? Or does the Ghoul make attack rolls, and if so do they get a bonus to hit?

3) Bab of Claw / Claw / Bite monsters:
One last thing, for things like Lions, Bears, and Trolls, the bonus for a claw attack is often at a different bonus to hit then the bite attack. Since the MM does not give base attack bonus for most monsters, what bonus should be used for the grapple checks?

For question three, I have been using the attack bonus for the attack that started the grapple. But since this topic has been brought up, I figure I may as well ask. Odds are that I am not the only one who is not entirely clear on that problem.

Depending on the answers to these questions, Trolls may be a true horror when grappled (auto hit for two claws, a bite and a rend for every successful grapple to inflict damage).

END COMMUNICATION

1) Grapple attacks incorprate the entire body, and thus you can only use your ittertive attacks from BAB for grappling (acording to the Sage and the FAQ, at least). The exception is that you can take a -20 to the grapple check to grapple with a specific part of your body only, and not be considered 'grappled' (MM 9), in which case you can use a specific body part to grapple.

1a) Rend is a special ability specific to normal unarmed attacks... good question. As a pure DM call I think I'd allow it, by the rules I don't think you could, even if the troll used it's claws as light weapons in the grapple, you can't use two weapon fighting in a grapple.

2) You specificaly can't use two weapons, or even more than one set of limbs (one to hold you, one to beat you) in a grapple per the FAQ. Added weapons don't help.

3) BAB isn't hard to get. All mosters have BAB dependent on HD and class, you can find these in the front of the MM (MM 13). reverse engennering it usualy involves a simple procedure of taking the highest attack bonus, subtract the str bonus (or dex, if they have weapon finnese or use ranged weapons) and size modifier and any relevent feats (like weapon focus). Remember that there's a special size modifier to grapple checks (one that increases as you get bigger, rather than decreasing. Most likely you've been selling your big monsters short for their grapple checks).