Grapple

[vic20]

It seems simple enough, I know, but I was wondering if someone could give me a roll-by-roll breakdown of a grapple in combat? The stuff that confuses me is the "move in" and "pin" and what-not. Do these all happen during the same round that the grapple is begun?

That is, if I want to start a grapple, do I make a touch attack (to grab my opponent), then make a grapple check (to see if I start the grapple), and then move into his square (is this mandatory?), and/or then deliver damage, pin, carry him, etc.

Help me?

RJ

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/grappling.html

 

[Otterscrubber]

I wish they had done a better job with Grapple, it is way to confusing. Every time I think I have a grasp on it we have a grapple situation in a game and spend an hour trying to figure out some detail or issue that someone brings up. The system they came up with just doesnt work so well when compared with the melee combat system.

 

[Kershek]

Re: Re: Grapple

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/grappling.html

At this web page, Sean states the following:

Ranged attacks against either have a 50% chance of striking the other grappler. These penalties only apply to attacks made by people not involved in the grapple (in other words, attacker and defender attack each other normally).

Do melee attacks from someone not in the grapple have a 50% chance in striking the other grappler? If not, why would he say the second sentence? Yes, I understand he clarifies his statement with the parentheses, but "people not involved in the grapple" could be attacking from both ranged and melee and he doesn't mention the latter.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Grapple

Do melee attacks from someone not in the grapple have a 50% chance in striking the other grappler?

No.

If not, why would he say the second sentence?

Because ranged attacks from someone in the grapple don't have a chance of striking the wrong person.

("Ranged attacks from someone in the grapple?" you say...)

For example, a Still Disintegrate can be cast by a grappled spellcaster, assuming he either has lodestone and dust in hand, or Eschew Materials. It requires a ranged touch attack.

If his buddy casts Disintegrate, there's a 50/50 chance of powdering his friend. But the grappled caster can't accidentally Disintegrate himself.

-Hyp.

 

[Kershek]

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Re: Re: A few questions of my own

1) Grapple attacks incorprate the entire body, and thus you can only use your ittertive attacks from BAB for grappling (acording to the Sage and the FAQ, at least). The exception is that you can take a -20 to the grapple check to grapple with a specific part of your body only, and not be considered 'grappled' (MM 9), in which case you can use a specific body part to grapple.

I would like to see that FAQ myself, if you could post a link to it. I interpret the -20 rule as a way to allow unusually large creatres like Dragons to grapple multiple creatures.

However, I am aware of no creatures that possess Claw/Claw/Bite type attack routines that also have iterative attacks. A Roc gets 2 Claws at +21 Melee. If we use your answer to my last question, that gives it +12 for Str, and -4 for size, resulting in a Bab of +13. But the Roc gets no iterative attacks.

Still, so far so good.

1a) Rend is a special ability specific to normal unarmed attacks... good question. As a pure DM call I think I'd allow it, by the rules I don't think you could, even if the troll used it's claws as light weapons in the grapple, you can't use two weapon fighting in a grapple.

I am inclined to agree with your DM call for rend, but on a different basis. I do not equate natural attacks to light weapons while grappling. I recall seeing somewhere that creatures that do real damage unarmed do that damage while grappling. And the troll Rend is not only a natural attack, but it requires that the troll gets both hands on the target. When grappling, a creature is likely to use all of its grasping limbs to grapple unless the target fits in the palm of its proverbial hand.

2) You specificaly can't use two weapons, or even more than one set of limbs (one to hold you, one to beat you) in a grapple per the FAQ. Added weapons don't help.

Now I really want to see that FAQ. It sounds like a response to someone asking to use both hands for unarmed attacks while grappling. I see grappling as the unarmed equivalent of a two handed weapon.

However, the MM also says that the primary attack is usually listed at one bonus, and the secondary attacks at -5. With the Troll both of its claw attacks are at the higher bonus. Ghouls have Bite listed as the primary attack. So should we then assume that Trolls do not bite when attacking and that Ghouls grapple with their mouths?

3) BAB isn't hard to get. All mosters have BAB dependent on HD and class, you can find these in the front of the MM (MM 13). reverse engennering it usualy involves a simple procedure of taking the highest attack bonus, subtract the str bonus (or dex, if they have weapon finnese or use ranged weapons) and size modifier and any relevent feats (like weapon focus). Remember that there's a special size modifier to grapple checks (one that increases as you get bigger, rather than decreasing. Most likely you've been selling your big monsters short for their grapple checks).

Thanks for the advice on how to get Bab from those stats. I was already aware of the Size modifier to grapple, though, so I am in no danger of short changing creatures for being big.

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[Hypersmurf]

WotC FAQs.

-Hyp.

 

[Stalker0]

Re: Re: A few questions of my own

1) Grapple attacks incorprate the entire body, and thus you can only use your ittertive attacks from BAB for grappling (acording to the Sage and the FAQ, at least). The exception is that you can take a -20 to the grapple check to grapple with a specific part of your body only, and not be considered 'grappled' (MM 9), in which case you can use a specific body part to grapple.

In the grapple rules section, it says once your in a grapple you can attack with light weapons as normal. And I believe natural weapons counts as light, so I think you can still attack with your other natural weapons while in a grapple right?

 

[Destil]

Re: Re: Re: A few questions of my own

In the grapple rules section, it says once your in a grapple you can attack with light weapons as normal. And I believe natural weapons counts as light, so I think you can still attack with your other natural weapons while in a grapple right?

from the FAQ:

Can a creature with two natural weapons, say two claws,
make two grapple attempts in a single round? Could a
character using the rules for fighting with two weapons pull
off the same trick? Exactly how many grapple checks can
you make each round?
You can make one grapple check for every attack your base
attack bonus normally allows. The number of weapons you use
doesn’t affect the number of grapple checks you can make. For
example, a dire ape, an animal with 5 Hit Dice, has a base
attack bonus of +3, so it can make only one grapple check each
round despite its three natural weapons. Note that when you opt
to deal damage with a grapple, you deal subdual damage
according to your size, not your natural weapon. For example, a
dire ape (a Large creature) deals 1d4 points of subdual damage
with a successful grapple attack, plus its Strength bonus of +6.
Note that creatures with the improved grab special attack can
use their natural weapons in a grapple. Note also that monk
characters deal their unarmed strike damage with successful
grapple checks. Monks and creatures with improved grab are
formidable grapplers.
The normal grappling rules assume that the attacker uses
pretty much her whole body in the attack. (When you grapple,
you wrap your arms and maybe your legs around the foe.) You
can grapple while using a shield, but the shield’s armor check
penalty applies to your grapple check.
If the creature has the improved grab special attack, it can

One of the things I'd disagree with the sage on, since I'd go that way entirely. Natural weapons = light weapons. Thus you can use them in a grapple to deal damage. As pet the FAQ you can't, but my call as a DM would be okay (though I'd rule you can't use two weapon fighting / two claws in a grapple, reguardless).

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Thanks for the FAQ link.

It would appear that my question was asked directly in the FAQ. A Creature with multiple attacks gets only one attack when it attempts to grapple. Furthermore, it deals unarmed damage based on its size.

The exception to this are creatures with Improved Grab. In those situations, the creature can inflict normal damage with the attack that scored the hit, plus any damage that would occur from a constriction ability.

Anyway, that about answers all of my questions.

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