Grappling Clarification Needed

[Otterscrubber]

Ki Ryn, thank you for the excellent post. It helps tremendously. Althoguh frankly with understanding of the grappling system it makes me think they really need an overhaul of it. The one thing that I never liked is the -20 monsters get for using the "Imporved Grab". That penalty pretty much ensures that no monster will ever do it. I mean the bonus for a collosal creature attacking a medium one is only +16. Seems a bit ridiculous to me.

Now the scenario that brought me to the message boards with this question is one where I wanted a winged opponent to grab one of my PCs and fly off with her. It was a dragon without the snatch feat. Now, i won't even get into the oddities of the snatch feat and why it takes a Collosal sized dragon to grab a human, but I thought that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have a Young Adult Black dragon, size Large, grab a human and fly off.

Now this isn't the same as snatch as the dragon does not intend to inflict automatic damage, merely hold on and then fly away. According to current rules this can't happen, even with a large creature, but that seems odd to me. Am I just not reading the rules right or does anyone out there agree that maybe the grappling rules need an overhaul a bit?

 

[jonrog1]

That penalty pretty much ensures that no monster will ever do it. I mean the bonus for a collosal creature attacking a medium one is only +16. Seems a bit ridiculous to me.

Don't forget attack bonuses, individual to each creature. They can be very nasty. And considering that once you're past 5th level or so anything big has a brutal, BRUTAL strength bonus ... well, there you go. Not particularly effective, but not totally useless.

Now the scenario that brought me to the message boards with this question is one where I wanted a winged opponent to grab one of my PCs and fly off with her. It was a dragon without the snatch feat. Now, i won't even get into the oddities of the snatch feat and why it takes a Collosal sized dragon to grab a human, but I thought that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have a Young Adult Black dragon, size Large, grab a human and fly off.

Considering my DM is currently kicking our collective arses with a Large dragon, I'll toss out a guess here. Large is about the size of a horse, right? So you (the dragon) just grab something, and with that extra weight, trying to take off -- with that "something" being a guy in platemail stabbing at your eyes with a shortsword (hello, fighting with light weapons during a grapple ...). A useful house rule for actually dragging your grapple buddy around is that you have to not only be grappling, but also have a "pin."

Am I just not reading the rules right or does anyone out there agree that maybe the grappling rules need an overhaul a bit?

Maybe a bit, but all in all, they're not bad. Probably just needlessly complicated because the whole AoO system's wonky -- a sytem, you'll notice, most other game designers (including Monte Cook in CoC) have dispensed with.

 

[0-hr]

I'm glad that you liked the write up. I'm not vouching for the contents 100% but it's my best guess and it's been run through these boards before so it should be pretty close. Looked a lot better in Word though :/

And as for an overhaul of the system, I agree completely. The d20 rules are very elegant in most respects and that just makes the clumsy grappling rules stand out all the more. I think most people just avoid grappling because they know it will bring the fight to a screeching halt while everyone goes into research mode to try and figure out what happens. And it too bad too, because it would otherwise lend itself really well to some dramatic situations.

 

[hong]

All Nukem did was clarify the fact that the target doesn't get that second AoO, and I believe "open mouth insert foot" was in reference to his own misunderstanding of the posts. Why the devil does everybody go from zero to snarky in six seconds flat on these boards?

Sorry, I'm in the low part of my biorhythm cycle right now. Silly questions? MUST! SMASH! Thesis blocked? MUST SMASH! Neverwinter Nights not here yet? MUST! SMASH!

But that's all right, because in 15 days, I'll be in the high part. Then I'll be walking around with a daffy smile on my face and causing traffic accidents by not looking where I'm going.

 

[hong]

Ki Ryn, thank you for the excellent post. It helps tremendously. Althoguh frankly with understanding of the grappling system it makes me think they really need an overhaul of it. The one thing that I never liked is the -20 monsters get for using the "Imporved Grab". That penalty pretty much ensures that no monster will ever do it. I mean the bonus for a collosal creature attacking a medium one is only +16. Seems a bit ridiculous to me.

The -20 penalty applies only if the creature uses only the grabbing appendage to maintain the grapple. The benefit is that it isn't considered grappled (ie retains Dex bonus to AC, threatens an area).

Now the scenario that brought me to the message boards with this question is one where I wanted a winged opponent to grab one of my PCs and fly off with her. It was a dragon without the snatch feat. Now, i won't even get into the oddities of the snatch feat and why it takes a Collosal sized dragon to grab a human, but I thought that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have a Young Adult Black dragon, size Large, grab a human and fly off.

Size L isn't that big. It's roughly 8' to 16' long, about the size of a horse. I don't have trouble imagining that a dragon that size would have to make an effort to drag off a human.

 

[Quidam]

Grappling & Attacks from the Outside

I had a recollection re: attacks on grapplers from those outside, but had the DARNEDEST time finding the ref. Turns out they did a good job of hiding it. It's ONLY mentioned in a TABLE. What it boils down to is that for RANGED attacks, when firing into a grapple, roll % to see which grappler is hit.

the ref please....?

PH132, Table 8-8- look at the double dagger notation.

Now how's that for obscure rule placement? Anyone found one in a worse place?

dmt

 

[Otterscrubber]

Size L isn't that big. It's roughly 8' to 16' long, about the size of a horse. I don't have trouble imagining that a dragon that size would have to make an effort to drag off a human.

Ever try to wrestle with a Bear? Well......me neither but I think it is a fair bet I wouldn't do too well and if it felt like carrying me off I don't think I would be able to stop it. The way the rules are currently don't allow this and I think that is silly. A size advantage should not only allow a bonus to the grapple check but also allow certain other leeway, like the ability to move while grappling with a smaller opponent. As an ex-wrestler (not Professional) I can assure you that between two evenly matched opponents ( i.e. skilled or at least with some unarmed training) a size difference of 100% puts you at a severe disadvantage if you are the small guy.

 

[jonrog1]

Ever try to wrestle with a Bear? Well......me neither but I think it is a fair bet I wouldn't do too well and if it felt like carrying me off I don't think I would be able to stop it.

Assuming you were conscious and a professional fighter, it could probably drag you off with some effort -- that effort being the "pin". Just adding the extra step seems to reasonably cover the "hole" in the rules here.

And as for the flying opponent -- hmm, I'd say the analogy is similar. The wings have to lift the assailant AND the victim. That's like the difference between dragging a struggling opponent across the room, and clean-and-jerk lifting him up and carrying him.

I mean, look at what carrying a coconut does to the average air speed of a European swallow ...

 

[hong]

Ever try to wrestle with a Bear? Well......me neither but I think it is a fair bet I wouldn't do too well and if it felt like carrying me off I don't think I would be able to stop it. The way the rules are currently don't allow this and I think that is silly. A size advantage should not only allow a bonus to the grapple check but also allow certain other leeway, like the ability to move while grappling with a smaller opponent.

If a bear wanted to take you somewhere, it wouldn't just wrestle you. It would slam you in the head with its paws, most likely fracturing your skull, and then drag you off. Bears are possibly the meanest fighting machines on four legs, but that doesn't mean they're in the habit of expending unnecessary energy to drag around opponents who are still kicking and screaming.

As an ex-wrestler (not Professional) I can assure you that between two evenly matched opponents ( i.e. skilled or at least with some unarmed training) a size difference of 100% puts you at a severe disadvantage if you are the small guy.

Ah, the old "I know about X, D&D doesn't simulate X, therefore D&D is silly" argument. At least it's wrestling this time, and not swordfighting, history, geography or politics.

D&D is a game, and its rules are an abstract system. Abstract systems never model reality perfectly. For _most_ situations, D&D works well -- in this case, for example, if you grapple someone, you probably have more to worry about than just your opponent. You also have to worry about his friends sticking you in the gut while you're trying to strangle him. Thus you wouldn't be able to do everything you could do in a controlled bout, and vice-versa.

There are already massive size mods to the grappling check. These do a good enough job for modelling that aspect of the issue for me. If you want to modify the rules to account for your knowledge and/or tastes, take it to House Rules.

 

[Spenser]

Hey there, Otterscrubber.

The -20 penalty applies only if the creature uses only the grabbing appendage to maintain the grapple. The benefit is that it isn't considered grappled (ie retains Dex bonus to AC, threatens an area).

I think hong's statement is pretty key. The monster can choose to take the -20 penalty or not. If it doesn't take the penalty, then it is really hard to escape the grapple. If it does take the penalty, then the monster continues to threaten its normal area, meaning that it is free to attack your friends with its other attack routines. For example, the Colossal dragon clamps you in its jaws and then continues to claw and tail slap your companions. Trade one attack routine to neutralize any opponent? Not bad if you ask me.

As for the bear, I think it is done perfectly. I mean, if I remember correctly a grizzly bear is Str 27, large, with maybe a +3 or +4 BAB? That's a +15 grapple check. Our wrestler (basically a strong commoner) is very unlikely to be able to wriggle free from that. Meanwhile, the bear is not going to take -20 so it can swipe at your friends -- that would just be showing off. Instead, it will simply continue to crush you, or rend you with its claws (which count as small weapons). Either way, you're hosed.

The beauty of the D&D system is that it is flexible enough to handle heroic characters who could possibly wrestle a bear, minotaur, or whatnot. You and I would get torn apart regardless of our wrestling background, but a 10th lvl raging barbarian would acquit himself quite well. As it should be.