Grappling Rules...?

[GlassJaw]

I like the grapple rules, although my players have made it clear to me more than once they were not amused. There's nothing like being grappled by a kuo-toan monk underwater.

 

[buzz]

I do notice that, even after years of playing 3e, combat still seems to grind to a halt when grappling enters the picture. A debate about whether natural weapons count for "unarmed strike damage" almost derailed an entire session; the written rules are vague (enough), and Skip's RotG intertpretation goes against that of pretty much everyone else in the known universe, ergo it was no help to us.

Not that I think the rules for grappling are bad; they generally make sense to me. I guess they're just used infrequently and complex enough that we get flummoxed.

But... grapple-focused characters being weak? Are you kidding me? Improved Grab and Improved Grapple are a beeyotch!

 

[ARandomGod]

If a player is grappling then they must "drop" their weapons weither they are light or heavy, so therefore attacking with weapons while in a grapple isn't possible, therefore 2 weapon fighting isn't possible, Armor Spikes unless they are at minimum 3 to 4 inches long wouldn't be able to cause critical damage to body, and having them that long make the armor so cumbersome to the player that he would, more than likely, fail every grapple check he made,

As a warforged juggernaught grappler, all I can say is:

"Your spikes are only 3 or 4 inches long? You are PaTHEtic. I will Crush You."

 

[ARandomGod]

I like the grapple rules, although my players have made it clear to me more than once they were not amused. There's nothing like being grappled by a kuo-toan monk underwater.

OK, I'll admit it, I think the game would be cleaner without grapple.

Of course, one good alternate rule set is:

1) Players will always loose any grapple check they initiate.
2) Monsters will always win unless the GM wants them to lose
3) Players will always escape and kill the monster after being nearly killed.


Now them are some good rules.
Note: If you use these rules, don't tell the players. They will not be amused even further.

 

[Catavarie]

As a warforged juggernaught grappler, all I can say is:

"Your spikes are only 3 or 4 inches long? You are PaTHEtic. I will Crush You."

I shall smite thee with my +10 Battering Ram of Thunder

MWUAHHAHA

 

[Raelcreve]

...

In a fight with multiple opponents, trying to grapple someone has a multitude of effects. First, the whole problem of being a grappler in a gang fight, and second, how does anyone else attack if it's one creature, and third, the actual grapple rules slow down already slow combat.

Yes, terminology. If I say I'm going to fire an arrow at you with my crossbow does that make any sense? You know what I mean, but it's not correct.

You can most certainly grapple someone with a weapon. It's called trapping.

You can't pin someone with "only" one hand. You can certainly joint lock them with one hand. The purpose of a pin is to immobilize an opponent between you and a flat surface. This is generally considered to be the ground, thus requiring the person being pinned to be prone.

And what can a grapple based character do against a flying opponent? Or an ooze? Or an opponent more than one size category larger than them?

The basic problem, as I see it, is that grappling is a very effective combat form, yet the rules for it make inserting it into normal combat ungainly. I've seen variant systems that turn normal combat into more of the grapple style rules (instead of a base 10 AC, you roll a d20 as an opposed check) but the point is to make it more streamlined, not less...

My thought was to do something more along the lines of having a grapple AC (like size modifier and dex/dodge added together) and your grapple check is against that. Then streamline the rest of the rules behind that.

 

[adwyn]

I gotta go with the keep them as is - Yes grapple can be nasty, but ever bull rush a PC of a cliff? They'll scream bloody murder about that as well. A PC needs to be capable of handling many situations so there will always be one trick opponents who don't suffer from that.

The mechanics make sense if you loosen up your visualization a little. Weapons don't have to be dropped, they simply be pinned between the combatants. Grappling isn't just the Greco Roman wrestling most of us had in gym, but a catch all for those up close and personal moments of combat we see in the movies. Really weapons , locked together and a suprise kick is just as likely an explanation.

 

[babomb]

the whole problem of being a grappler in a gang fight

Say you've got a grapple-focused character. Your party's going up against an enemy of approximately equal number. You grapple one. This accomplishes:

1) Prevents him from attacking anyone besides you, unless he breaks the grapple. And if he's your size or smaller and not grapple-focused, he'll have a tough time of it. Even if he does break the grapple, he's used at least one attack that round. This is good spellcasters or anyone else who can attack more than one of you at the same time. A spellcaster could try to cast spells, but only with no somatic components, and for which he already has material components or focii in hand. I can't tell you how many high-level fights have been cakewalks because the monk or Bigby's Grasping Hand neutralized a major opponent.

2) Also prevents him from helping allies. For example, a grappled cleric heals nobody.

3) If you're a monk, you can use the "damage your opponent option" to do your full unarmed damage against him with no penalty. Your opponent, unless also a monk, can either attack with unarmed strikes, natural attacks, or a light weapon at -4 or use the "damage your opponent" option to deal damage equivalent to an unarmed strike (1d3 nonlethal for medium creatures) at no penalty.

4) Gives the rogue sneak attack opportunities.

5) Admittedly, it makes you more vulnerable to melee attacks, but does the same to your opponent.

For extra fun, get enlarge person cast on you first.

how does anyone else attack if it's one creature

Option 1) Join the grapple. (3.5 PHB p.157) This can help keep the opponent from escaping, because now he has to beat multiple grapplers. And all of them can use the "Damage Opponent" grapple option.

Option 2) Make a normal attack. Ranged attacks have an equal chance of hitting any opponent in the grapple, but melee attacks are always against the designated target. And the opponent loses Dex bonus to AC (=sneak attack) to everyone not grappling him. If he's pinned, he's got an additional -4 to AC to everyone not grappling him.

Option 3) Cast a spell with creatures as targets. These work normally without affecting the ally grappling him. Magic missile is a good example. Sleep works at low levels too.

Option 4) Tie him up. Not listed in the book, but a touch attack followed by use rope, I'd say. (You can also put him in manacles if you've got 'em.)

 

[BWP]

Okay...we all know the grappling rules, well, suck.

We do?

They work, they're relatively simple, in my experience they accomplish what they set out to do. Could they be improved? Maybe; lots of things can be improved -- that doesn't mean that they don't work in their current form.

I think you have a problem connecting what the rules say with what you think grappling represents. Your problem with what pinning means, for example; you seem to be under the impression that "pinning" is some sort of well-understood wrestling term that can mean only one thing and nothing else. Well, D&D is not wrestling, and "pinning" in the Grappling rules means exactly what those rules say it means, neither more nor less.

If you don't like the grappling rules and want to replace them with something of your own design, then by all means do so. But please don't assume that your views represent the views of all of us.

In any case, this thread should be in the "rules" forum, shouldn't it?

 

[Soel]

Grapple rules are clunky at best. Definitely need some streamlining...More options ala throwing, multiple grapplers coordination of attacks to achieve something specific (pin an arm for instance, while another pins a leg.)