Grappling Rules...?

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

verisimilitudinously

I think that this whole issue comes back to what I was just saying on another thread regarding character wealth:

Too much realism ruins D&D.

Realism can be really neat, and sometimes it can be fun to roleplay out things that players really know, but generally, abstraction is a good thing. If you know much about martial arts in general, you should realize that the monk class is not terribly realistic. Grappling doesn't really work in the real world the way it does in D&D. Niether does swordplay. Lets not even get started on armor. Injury?! Healing?! You've got to be kidding, right?

It's a game. It can be fun. Don't overthink it.

(hey, neato. I just figured out a sig!)

 

[mmadsen]

My thought was to do something more along the lines of having a grapple AC (like size modifier and dex/dodge added together) and your grapple check is against that. Then streamline the rest of the rules behind that.

That's certainly easy enough to implement: make the defender take 10 instead of rolling a d20. Create a grappling class (10 + grapple bonus) to reflect this.

(Of course, for contests to be fair, the base should be 11, not 10, but armor class set the precedent.)

 

[Quasqueton]

You can't pin someone with "only" one hand. You can certainly joint lock them with one hand.

Well, note that I actually said, "In the Real World you can pin/lock an opponent with one hand..." The slash joined the D&D term with the RW term. [And for the record, you can "immobilize an opponent between you and a flat surface" (read: pin) with one hand.]

And what can a grapple based character do against a flying opponent? Or an ooze?

What does any melee fighter do against a flying opponent? Or an ooze?

The rest of your rant is just as ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with the grapple rules that isn't "wrong" with the whole of the D&D combat rules.

Quasqueton

 

[The_Fan]

The only problem I have with them is they're confusing. For instance, bet you didn't know you automatically do unarmed damage on successfully initiating a grapple? It's true!

Anyway, I use them as is. I've had success with them when they're used the way they're meant to be:

Grappling a giant = bad

Grappling a puny mage = very good

One time I shocked the heck out of a DM by my character (rogue/fighter) tumbling through a summoned creature's space to grapple the summoner and force her to call it off.

 

[Zappo]

And what can a grapple based character do against a flying opponent? Or an ooze? Or an opponent more than one size category larger than them?

Are you saying that you want the grapple rules changed so that it is possible to, uhm, grapple flyers and oozes? Not to mention, to grapple things so big that you can't even hug their leg? Dude, the problem here isn't the rules. You need to be more in touch with reality.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Our group has been using the grapple rules pretty regularly since our resistent monk/half orc paragon reached 4th level. He once squeezed a stone statue into dust. Grappling works just fine for us - having the grapple check listed in the MM is a big help too. (and I make sure all of my NPCs have a grapple check listed).

Now if you wanted to expand the grapple rules to include stuff like knocking a guy prone or whatever that I could see but the RAW work great once you have the grapple bonus for each person.

 

[Zappo]

IMC, grappling sees a lot of use. Grappling sucks at dealing damage... but it is great as a tactical option. Disrupt spellcasters, prevent people from fleeing, force opponents to attack you instead of your own casters, greatly reduce their damage output, provide sneak-attack opportunities for rogues... sure it doesn't work against anything and everything, but then, what does?

Characters that only know how to do one thing deserve whatever they get.

 

[cmanos]

OH here's an idea....if you don't like the grappling rules, don't use them, instead of bitching about how much you don't like them...

 

[radferth]

Streamlined grapple rules:

Defender uses GC of 10 + Grapple Check

Initiate as normal

When in a grapple, attack normally at -4, or succeed on a grapple check to do anything to your opponent.

Assume grapplers are beyond the whole prone/standing dicotomy. When a grapple ends, assume everyone is back to standing if they want to be.

 

[mmadsen]

I still don't understand the complaint. Which is it?

1. Grappling isn't effective enough.
2. The rules for grappling are clunky.
3. D&D grappling isn't like real grappling.