Great Crossbow

[Rystil Arden]

5' step being the exception.

Well yes, of course. But you can also 5' step and reload the crossbow, so that isn't the move he meant

 

[Bront]

I think you're letting the big damage number get in the way of an accurate comparison. It's a definite improvement over the H. Repeating Crossbow with one shot (One higher damage value then then H. Repeating, One better Crit number), however it's still a full round to reload the thing compared to a full iterative attack with H. repeater.

Even without the higher level reiterative attacks, you can 'reload' the H. repeating crossbow as a free action so long as the case still has ammo in it. Compare this to the Great Crossbow that requires a full turn to reload. Someone armed with the Repeating Heavy can move and shoot without a problem for 5 rounds before needing to reload. Someone with the Great Crossbow will be able to get off 3 shots in the same amount of time (Shoot, Reload, Shoot, Reload, Shoot), and will not be able to move at all while reloading.

Over Time comparison.
5d10 (Avg 27.5) vs. 6d8 (27 Avg)
The Repeating Crossbow actually outdamages, on average, the Great Crossbow over a 5 round shot cycle. The improved critical is, IMO, more then compensated for by the complete lack of mobility required to reload the Great Crossbow.

You're also ignoring the crit. 5% chance increase in criticals is big. It's why a Scimitar is balanced with a Longsword (for the most part) and a Rapier is better than a short sword. Now, it's not so huge that it can make up a die difference completely in damage (Longsword is a little better in average damage compaired to a scimitar for the most part), but it also makes things like Keen and improved Crit more interesting as well (where the edge becomes 10%)

That, plus the extra damage, makes the crossbow unbalanced, at least when compared to other crossbows.

Don't forget, the repeating crossbow takes several rounds to reload, so if you run out of shots in your clip, you're screwed.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Uh, no. You cannot move while using Rapid Shot, which only works during a full attack.

Whoops, mixed up Manyshot and rapid shot . My mistake. Still, a Composite Longbow with Point Blank and Rapid Fire matches (IMO) a Great Crossbow with Rapid Reload, especially once you start adding in the strength damage. Your typical fighter-archer can easilly get a +1/+2 Str bonus and still maintain Dex as their principle stat. Compare this to no bonus damage that you get with the crossbow as is.

You're also ignoring the crit.

...Don't forget, the repeating crossbow takes several rounds to reload, so if you run out of shots in your clip, you're screwed.

It might look that way at first, but I'm not really ignoring it. The Great Crossbow's increased critical chance with one shot is comparable to the multiple chances of a critical with a repeating crossbow. If they maintained the same number of shots, it'd be a good comparison, but you're still getting 5 shots and chances to crit compared to 3 shots with a 5% increase in the crit chance.

Repeating Crossbows take a full round action to reload. That's why I used a 5 round cycle for comparison. Both weapons would have a 'Reload' turn after the 5th round before restarting the cycle.

To introduce a new way of looking at the increase of the Great Crossbow over the Heavy Crossbow, let's look at a different weapon progression using a melee weapon. Note that it has a similar end result to the Great Crossbow

This is the base weapon...
Simple Weapon - Morningstar, 1d8 damage, x2

We then have a step up to martial, which increases the critical range by 1.
Martial Weapon - Long Sword, 1d8 damage, 19-20/x2

And in the last step up to exotic, it increases the damage by a step.
Exotic Weapon - Bastard Sword (One Handed), 1d10 damage, 19-20/x2

There's a clear pattern of each 'step' up the ladder either increasing the damage die by one, increasing the critical range by 1, or increasing the critical multiplier by 1. The Great Crossbow is just following the exact same progression.

 

[Bront]

Of note, the Great crosbow does aproximately .38 points more damage over the course of 6 rounds compaired to the Repeating crossbow. Not exactly a lot.

The repeating crossbow is also a 1 round reload time if you have a full cartrage. It's 1 round per bolt otherwise, plus one for the cartrage.

With Rapid Reload, it becomes an average of 15.13 points of damage over 6 rounds. Or, slightly more than weapon specialization.

Of course, then if you add crossbow sniper into the mix...

Of note, a +1 Str Longbow (seems fairly reasonable to have) has a 2.49 point advantage over the great crossbow over 6 rounds, or a 12.26 disadvantage with rapid reload on the crossbow. Rapid Shot vs Rapid Reload is a 7.22 point advantage for the crossbow, though that one varries a bit more depending on the AC (Advantage Rapid Shot on anything that needs an 8 or less to hit using Rapid Shot (6 or less with the crossbow), advantage crossbow on anything needing less than a 19 to hit (nat 20 for the longbow), then advantage longbow again.).

Note, both averages are taken accross a roll of 1-20 to hit, and include criticals, and any AC hitable on a roll between 1-20, and use average damage. Probably not 100% accurate, but they give a general idea.

So, I guess statisticly, it's not bad, but it's almost abusive with Rapid Shot. of course, that's 2 feats at that point.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Of course, if you're fighting things you hit on an 8 or less or that require a natural 20, you're probably out of the ordinary range of encounters. The crossbow is stronger against almost any realistic encounter.

 

[Bront]

Of course, if you're fighting things you hit on an 8 or less or that require a natural 20, you're probably out of the ordinary range of encounters. The crossbow is stronger against almost any realistic encounter.

Yup, I was just mentioning all the posabilities. And that was the only weapon situation I looked at where one weapon wasn't superior accross all ACs.