Great - Now *I* Have a Paladin's moral dilemma - Sunless Citadel spoiler

[Cullain]

The other option, though, rather than giving up all your equipment now, give up something in the future...tell the other character that you'll trade the whistle for the next magical item that you come across. A masterwork 2H sword might not seem a fair trade, but the next +1 sword you come across might be.

To agree with (almost)everyone else, well done RPing though. Just destroying the thing might make sense from a character perspective, but would make for crappy playing. Ignoring it might make for easier playing, but crap RPing.

Cullain

 

[enrious]

Yes I have and when I do I understand the special requirements that they entail.

There are several things you failed to do from day 1.

First you never made any agreements with the party about what would be done as a group is an evil magic item was found. If you had and the Aasimar was still acting this way then you would have the rest of the party on your side and it the Aasimar would be breaking his word to the party.

Second you made no arrangements as a party to determine how magic items were to be passed out among the party. It appears that you are basically going with finder keepers. That does not work when you have one or more LGs in the party that are going to be looking over everyone's shoulder and trying to tell them what to do.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear earlier but this is the first adventure the party has gone on and even at that they are not by a long shot a cohesive party - they are working together because two of the members have friends that disappeared down the hole.

Does this sound realistic?

Paladin: "Well met. I am going in search of my missing friend."
Aasimar: "Well met. I am going in search of my missing friend."
Paladin: "Then let us pool our strength. First we need to discuss how we're going to divide up the treasure and magical items we find..."

The last time I ran a Paladin I made a very simple arrangement with the party. I always would chose LAST for any magic items found. The only exception was that I was to get any and all magic items found that radiated evil. These I would then either destroy, cleanse, or turn over to the church to be dealt with properly.

My party found my approach very workable and even though I always got last dibs on items found they made sure I got the items that best fit my character so I could fight my crusade against evil.

Sounds great. Should the party last I'll consider doing the same.

So your problem is simple. You don't appear to have a treasure agreement in the party. So either the item belongs to the Aasimar as finder of it or it goes to party vote. If I were you I would push for a party vote on what to do with all treasure found and go down the list one by one. When you get to the whistle you should step forward and make your case. If you do it properly the rest of the party should side with you against the Aasimar and the pressure of his fellows against him should force him to give the whistle to you.

Well, duh of course we don't yet have a treasure division agreement in place - we've been a little more concerned with finding our lost friends to concern ourselves with it. As I said, if the party lasts I'm sure some sort of agreement should go in place.

The problem is that I don't think the paladin would be willing to place the fate of the whistle in the hands of chance or a party vote. He has a higher authority to answer to than the party's sensibilities.

If on the other hand you just wait for the right moment and then swipe the item then you are stealing and the Aasimar has every right to kick your ass.

Absolutely. It would be at the least chaotic and likely also evil, IMO.

Remember he only has your word that the item is evil. Since you are a young party his character does not really know you well enough to know if you can really be taken for your word. At this point he could easily argue that you are lying for your own benefit and only want the item for yourself.

True but he does know the paladin is a paladin of Kelemvor. He knows what paladins are and knows that Kelemvor is the lord of the dead.

The paladin swore an oath in Kelemvor's name that that paladin did detect evil on the whistle.

I thought it was legendary that a paladin's word was his bond?

People need to remember that being a Paladin does not automatically make you or what you do right. Too many times people play Lawful Good Paladins as Lawful Dumb and just taking the whistle by force is Lawful Dumb.

I agree which is why the paladin didn't attack the aasimar. It's also why the paladin detects evil regularly - it's very easy to start the slippery slope.

BTW, running to your church so THEY can take the whistle is no better that is just Lawful Dumb en mass and shows the Aasimar that you are not really a friend of his and he cannot trust you to cover his back.

So instead it's better for the paladin to know that the aasimar is not really a friend of his and that he can't trust the aasimar to cover the paladin's back? Oh, and while he's at it, it's better for the paladin to turn his back on his code, his vows, the edicts of his god, his personal sense of right and wrong.

 

[enrious]

The Paladin is not the law though and as a good LG character should understand that.

They're under a dungeon, what law would that be?

In any event I just for the life of can't see in this circumstance there being any lawful justification for attacking the aasimar to obtain the whistle.

Now back in Waterdeep, I see it as very lawful to approach the Kelemvorean clergy about the problem because the undead fall under the lawful domain of Kelemvor; they are the authorities in this matter as far as the paladin is concerned. Perhaps audience with the Waterdeep authorities might be in order as well.

Thanks!

 

[enrious]

I remember reading that a spell minus certain components requires a +5 to the spellcraft check. A detect evil requires a V,S, DF. I would rule that the Paladin still needs to use his Divine focus so the ability would be equal to a Silent and Stilled detect evil spell.

AT +5 for silent and +5 for stilled the DC for Spellcraft would be 20 plus the spell level or 21 in this case.

Only problem I see with it is that it doesn't jive with the MM page 7. definition of "spell-like ability".

 

[enrious]

The other option, though, rather than giving up all your equipment now, give up something in the future...tell the other character that you'll trade the whistle for the next magical item that you come across. A masterwork 2H sword might not seem a fair trade, but the next +1 sword you come across might be.

To agree with (almost)everyone else, well done RPing though. Just destroying the thing might make sense from a character perspective, but would make for crappy playing. Ignoring it might make for easier playing, but crap RPing.
Cullain

Thanks.

I see your point about the money/power tradeoff. Giving up a zombie summoning whistle for a MW sword, full plate, and some healling potions probably isn't fair for the aasimar.

Of course, should the aasimar retain the whistle and the paladin tells the authorities then I doubt the aasimar would obtain so favorable a trade from the Kelemvorites.

But that's absolutely the last option; far better to offer up as you say a future magical equivilent item.

The aasimar views himself as a summoner (he's a sorcerer) so he is seeking out summoning devices; it's part of his character personality.

I doubt that any other sort of magical item would cause him to wish to keep it as strongly.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

No, its better to find a proper legal method to get the item back. Find out who lords over the area. His laws determine who gets found treasure. If he has ruled that all necromatic items found go to the Church of Kelemvor then bingo you have your easy out.

Afraid of a party vote? Whats wrong free will doesnt mean anything to you? You are the Paladin in the party, unless you are travelling with bards and sorcerers you should have the highest Charisma. Your role as paladin should be as moral guide but in a non preachy way. A good speach to the rest of the party should easily get them on your side if you do it correctly.

Remember though, one of the main problems here really lies outside of gaming. Normally by now either the Paladin or Aasimar would be considering if he or she should leave the party and strike off on their own. That would be the normal solution to this much tension between people who are little better than complete strangers. Yet since you are a gaming group you are forced to try to work the problem out in a very unlikely way.

One final comment, as a Paladin of Kelemvor and a hunter of the dead one of the first things you should tell people you plan on travelling and fighting with is your immediate goals. It would have appeared totally in character for you to tell everyone you met:

"We must go save our friends and quickly, let me be the first to say I will protect your backs and fight with my all for our survival and sucess. I do though have a higher calling and when it comes to the undead or anything associated with them I am duty bound to destroy them. I do not wish this to be a problem between any of us but my heart tells me you must all know this about me."

Sure it sounds corny but it works and when the whistle comes up bingo you have the perfect excuse to claim it.

So instead it's better for the paladin to know that the aasimar is not really a friend of his and that he can't trust the aasimar to cover the paladin's back? Oh, and while he's at it, it's better for the paladin to turn his back on his code, his vows, the edicts of his god, his personal sense of right and wrong.

 

[enrious]

No, its better to find a proper legal method to get the item back. Find out who lords over the area. His laws determine who gets found treasure. If he has ruled that all necromatic items found go to the Church of Kelemvor then bingo you have your easy out.

Good point. I see what you're saying about going to the local authorities, but what if the aasimar decides to strike off on his own - Waterdeep doesn't cover much of the surrounding area but the church covers the land.

And we're taking it for granted that the church would try to do something before approaching the local authorities.

Hmm..

"The third general order of a sentry is to report all violations of orders I'm instructed to enforce."

"The ninth general order of a sentry is to call the Officer of the Guard in any case not covered by instructions."

Seems to me like those would apply to a paladin with regards to his church.

Afraid of a party vote? Whats wrong free will doesnt mean anything to you? You are the Paladin in the party, unless you are travelling with bards and sorcerers you should have the highest Charisma.

Perhaps you missed it earlier but the Tymoran cleric sided with the paladin.

In any event, yes there is a sorcerer in the party. The aasimar.

Your role as paladin should be as moral guide but in a non preachy way. A good speach to the rest of the party should easily get them on your side if you do it correctly.

I agree, show by example. I'm with you on that. Of course, who's to say that the paladin is going to be perfectly rational and cool when a party member decides to keep an evil undead thingamabob? That's like two blasphemies in one.

Remember though, one of the main problems here really lies outside of gaming. Normally by now either the Paladin or Aasimar would be considering if he or she should leave the party and strike off on their own. That would be the normal solution to this much tension between people who are little better than complete strangers. Yet since you are a gaming group you are forced to try to work the problem out in a very unlikely way.

As I stated earlier, I'd rather have the paladin leave the party and roll up a new character than artificially keep the party intact.

One final comment, as a Paladin of Kelemvor and a hunter of the dead one of the first things you should tell people you plan on travelling and fighting with is your immediate goals. It would have appeared totally in character for you to tell everyone you met:

"We must go save our friends and quickly, let me be the first to say I will protect your backs and fight with my all for our survival and sucess. I do though have a higher calling and when it comes to the undead or anything associated with them I am duty bound to destroy them. I do not wish this to be a problem between any of us but my heart tells me you must all know this about me."

Sure it sounds corny but it works and when the whistle comes up bingo you have the perfect excuse to claim it.

There was a similiar speech and notice made that the paladin's first loyalty is to Kelemvor. The Tymoran priest even made that point when they were discussing the whistle - the Tymoran priest offered to keep the whistle and turn it over to his church for destruction.

The paladin readily agreed with that because destroying the whistle is what matters, not who does the destroying.

The aasimar refused the offer.

 

[Methinkus]

such abstract ideas of good and evil meant nothing to him; he did what he thought was best

Oh come on now, this argument just wouldn’t hold water in most D&D worlds. Good and evil are very real, often tangible forces in the world, and to call them abstract is using real world logic in a world where necromancers live forever and dragons can sleep with whales. Besides, I have trouble believing that a good person would not take such an “ends justify the means” stance like that.

Also, as a ranger, shouldn’t he be appalled by the idea of using undead creatures to fight for him? I might be wrong on this one, people’s views on rangers being so random and distant from one another as they are ever since they “got the shaft” in 3e. Even if his being a ranger has no bearing on this, his being good should prevent him from using creatures now animated by pure negative energy.

The paladin did a bang up job in my opinion, by the way.

 

[Gnarlo]

>>>Remember being LG does not mean you are always right. It merely means you think you are always right. There is a world of difference<<<<

You would do well to remember this, Doc, you are in danger of an alignment shift to Lawful Good....

 

[Gnarlo]

Sounds like you are having a wonderful time in the adventure right now One thing, as far as the slippery slope of party cohesion goes, have you the player talked to the other players (especially the planetouched one) and the DM about what's going on and to make sure everyone is in agreement that everything is happening "in game" and "in character" and that there should be no RL hard feelings? If everyone understands that it's all roleplay and fun, then go for it ! I think you are doing a great job of playing that Pally, wish I were in your group! Loved the "Pat Robertson and Billy Graham" remark