Great - Now *I* Have a Paladin's moral dilemma - Sunless Citadel spoiler

[enrious]

What I would have done, after failing to talk him into giving over the evil little instrument, would've been restraining the aasimar without hurting him, taking the whistle, and beating it to bits with any convenient heavy object, like the priest's mace. And then compensating him for it.
Of course, that would most certainly a create a rift in the party, and then someone would be rolling up a new character.

It's not a bad idea, but I see two potential drawbacks.

1) It ain't like the aasimar is a push over - it is by no means a "gimme" that the paladin could overpower the aasimar. I figure the odds are right at 50-50. So if the paladin tries and fails then potentially the paladin could die while the aasimar leaves with the whistle.

On the other hand, by waiting until they return to Waterdeep the paladin can inform his bretheren thus assuring the word gets out and can dedicate the rest of his life to tracking the aasimar if it comes to that.

2) In our campaign, I doubt even mundane magical items could be so easily destroyed as hitting them with a mace. It's possible of course, all up to the DM, but I have a feeling it's going to take some higher level magic.


Of course, the paladin's inclination is to try to smash the whistle with a hammer, regardless of whether or not the aasimar was wearing it at the time.

 

[enrious]

My players (NG ranger, NG cleric of Pelor and CG half-elven Wizard/rogue) blowed up the whistle once, but that didn't make any sound (and there wasn't any corpse nearby to animate), but they were afraid of blowing it again (the wizard detected Necomancy on it, so they know it deals with the dead; remember Healing is Conjuration).

After they finished SC, the cleric consulted the church of Pelor, and they did their research, and the whistle's true powers were identified. So the PCs gave the whistle to the church for destruction, and I handled them a big basket of XP for that.

Well, we're still in the dungeon so there has been no opportunity to have any sort of diagnostic magic cast on it. The paladin is convinced that it's evil and it summons undead. As far as he's concerned that's all that matters.

Enrious: Great Roleplaying! Much better than most paladins I DMed for (either Lawful Dumb or Batman Wannabe). I'd tell the aasimar: "Let's keep that thing safe until we know its true powers, and you can have your pick of any items we encounter. We must not forget that the End Does Not Justify The Means, and that summoning undead is a crime not only against life, but against the poor soul bound to the corpse, as Kelemvor AND [insert aasimar's faith here] teach us."

Thanks. I figure if you play a paladin with a normal personality it's more believable. If I were a holy crusader I wouldn't go around smiting everyone I thought commited sins; I'd try to convince them they were wrong and do everything I could to show them the error of their ways but ultimately the final judgement lies with Kelemvor.

Arguments about it being an affront to Kelemvor didn't move him; being something of a planetouched has rendered the aasimar unmoved by "mundane" gods of the realms. The same with the zombie's soul - he maintained that they were mindless thus the soul was already at it's final destination - the zombie were nothing more than a marionette.

Trying to appeal to the ranger side of the aasimar failed also because he didn't believe that the zombie was inherently unnatural. <sigh> I think planetouched are a little touched in the head.

On detecting a detect evil: Using the guidelines in Tome and Blood, I'd rule it as this: character must state that he'll keep close watch on the paladin during those times he's very concentrated and quiet. When such a thing happens, I'd have the character roll a Spellcraft check against DC 31 (30+1st level spell). If he rolls high enough, he notices something, like how the paladin's veins pop out, or his brow sweats a bit, or he clenches his teeth just a bit. Then I'd tell the character to roll either Knowledge (arcana) vs. DC 20 or Knowledge (religion) vs. DC 15 to know that a paladin can detect evil with just a bit of concentration.

Seems like a good rule (Doc was this what you alluded to?). Of course considering that the paladin often goes into such quiet moments regularly the partymembers would have to guess when he's just zoning and when he's sensing...

 

[enrious]

After about 5 minutes of the "lecture" any character worth half an ounce of his own alignment and moral convictions would tell the Paladin to shove off. If need be he would tell him at sword point.

Remember being LG does not mean you are always right. It merely means you think you are always right. There is a world of difference.

Likely so, but that's the beauty of role-playing. The paladin made his case but the aasimar was unmoved.

Now the paladin must act; he does not have a choice. The only question is what to do. The aasimar freely chose to not believe the paladin as is his right. That doesn't mean the paladin just drops it because he gave the old college try - he must obey the edicts of his god.

In this particular case, Kelemvor is the recognized god of the dead. He has decreed that all undead are an abomination against nature and has the support of many nature dieties who feel the same way. He has ordered all of his followers to destroy undead and undead agents without exception.

The paladin doesn't have a choice. Kelemvor is right because Kelemvor is the paladin's patron and has issued a decree about something in Kelemvor's portfolio.

That the paladin must act is certain; how the paladin should act to bring about the destruction of the whistle without performing evil or chaotic deeds is the sticking point.

 

[enrious]

Nothing like a good dose of holier than thou and smarter than you Paladin to make everyone want to puke up their lunches.

While we are at it I have to ask.

Eaten any good books lately?

Doc, have you ever played a paladin or are you just insulting from the sidelines?

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Kelemvor is not automatically right. He is one god out of about six dozen or so who all think whatever they say should be obeyed by everyone.

Kelemvor is right because Kelemvor is the paladin's patron and has issued a decree about something in Kelemvor's portfolio.
[/B]

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Yes I have and when I do I understand the special requirements that they entail.

There are several things you failed to do from day 1.

First you never made any agreements with the party about what would be done as a group is an evil magic item was found. If you had and the Aasimar was still acting this way then you would have the rest of the party on your side and it the Aasimar would be breaking his word to the party.

Second you made no arrangements as a party to determine how magic items were to be passed out among the party. It appears that you are basically going with finder keepers. That does not work when you have one or more LGs in the party that are going to be looking over everyone's shoulder and trying to tell them what to do.

The last time I ran a Paladin I made a very simple arrangement with the party. I always would chose LAST for any magic items found. The only exception was that I was to get any and all magic items found that radiated evil. These I would then either destroy, cleanse, or turn over to the church to be dealt with properly.

My party found my approach very workable and even though I always got last dibs on items found they made sure I got the items that best fit my character so I could fight my crusade against evil.

So your problem is simple. You don't appear to have a treasure agreement in the party. So either the item belongs to the Aasimar as finder of it or it goes to party vote. If I were you I would push for a party vote on what to do with all treasure found and go down the list one by one. When you get to the whistle you should step forward and make your case. If you do it properly the rest of the party should side with you against the Aasimar and the pressure of his fellows against him should force him to give the whistle to you.

If on the other hand you just wait for the right moment and then swipe the item then you are stealing and the Aasimar has every right to kick your ass. Remember he only has your word that the item is evil. Since you are a young party his character does not really know you well enough to know if you can really be taken for your word. At this point he could easily argue that you are lying for your own benefit and only want the item for yourself.

People need to remember that being a Paladin does not automatically make you or what you do right. Too many times people play Lawful Good Paladins as Lawful Dumb and just taking the whistle by force is Lawful Dumb.

BTW, running to your church so THEY can take the whistle is no better that is just Lawful Dumb en mass and shows the Aasimar that you are not really a friend of his and he cannot trust you to cover his back.

Doc, have you ever played a paladin or are you just insulting from the sidelines?

 

[enrious]

Kelemvor is not automatically right. He is one god out of about six dozen or so who all think whatever they say should be obeyed by everyone.

Not from the paladin's perspective.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

The Paladin is not the law though and as a good LG character should understand that.

Not from the paladin's perspective.

 

[Zhure]

I'd make the spellcraft check as being 20 + spell level (or 21, in this case, as Detect Evil is a 1st level spell for Clerics... maybe 22 since Rangers and Paladins have similar caster levels and spell lists and it's a Ranger 2 spell).

30 or higher is for "a strange or unique magical effect, such as the effects of a magic stream"

Greg

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I remember reading that a spell minus certain components requires a +5 to the spellcraft check. A detect evil requires a V,S, DF. I would rule that the Paladin still needs to use his Divine focus so the ability would be equal to a Silent and Stilled detect evil spell.

AT +5 for silent and +5 for stilled the DC for Spellcraft would be 20 plus the spell level or 21 in this case.

I'd make the spellcraft check as being 20 + spell level (or 21, in this case, as Detect Evil is a 1st level spell for Clerics... maybe 22 since Rangers and Paladins have similar caster levels and spell lists and it's a Ranger 2 spell).

30 or higher is for "a strange or unique magical effect, such as the effects of a magic stream"

Greg