Great - Now *I* Have a Paladin's moral dilemma - Sunless Citadel spoiler

[enrious]

You know I was thinking about it and your DM was awful liberal in your Detect Evil ability. The way the power works requires focus over several rounds. It seems odd that you just happened to be scanning long enough to focus on the whistle while the whistle happens to stay evil (you said it as only evil while it was being blown) long enough for you to focus on it.

We entered a burial tomb and discovered these items - I stated that I was detecting evil - it took a couple of rounds for the aasimar to decide to blow it - my detect evil had already been running for a few rounds when he caused evil to be present. Plus, as I stated, the evil aura faded only after a few minutes - I was scanning for at least the 18 seconds required to get to the third and final level of detect evil.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

So you did benefit from a major case of good timing.

We entered a burial tomb and discovered these items - I stated that I was detecting evil - it took a couple of rounds for the aasimar to decide to blow it - my detect evil had already been running for a few rounds when he caused evil to be present. Plus, as I stated, the evil aura faded only after a few minutes - I was scanning for at least the 18 seconds required to get to the third and final level of detect evil.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

There are specific rules for spellcraft checking when there is no verbal, somatic, and material components. Off hand I do not remember the specifics of the rules.

Beats me but as per the MM, page 7, "Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (although they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components)." So I don't know exactly what you could base a spellcraft check on - DC 50 maybe?

Although an argument in your favor is the fact that spell-like abilities provoke an attack of opportunity. Hmm.

The problem with legends and legendary figures is that quite often the truth is different from the legend.

Oh wait, you actually argued in my favor as odds are the legend would be that paladins automatically know if evil is present instead of the fact that paladins must focus and concentrate when choosing to detect evil.

 

[Deadguy]

Gee how very superior of you.

If I was in your party I would get pissed really fast that you wer judging my soul on a regualr basis to make I was still worth your presence.

Unfortunately, Doc, it's rather the way of the paladin to be making such judgements! The very nature of their powers and responsibilties means that they can't afford not to take such a stance. Now how they handle the knowledge they gain depends on the personality of the paladin. But you shouldn't be suprised, if you adventure with a paladin, that you get lectured as to the dangers of your course of action. Let's face it, the Clerics should probably do the same, but they tend not to be portrayed that way!

Putting it another way... Paladins are by their nature disruptive of groups that aren't made up solely of characters pretty close to Lawful Good in alignment; they havea Code which will shaft them if they don't take action over perceived unLawful or Evil behaviour. Where a group is more mixed, the DM needs to cut the Paladin some slack, or accept that the group might split.

In this specific case, It hink the characters are role-playing well, though the DM needs to be aware that they're on the path for the party splitting. If this concerns him, he (the DM) might need to have a word with the player of the aasimar. Why that player? Since he's the one who is in danger of the alignment drift (he's the good character who is already disturbingly possessive of an item he has been warned is created by Evil - how very One Ring! )

 

[enrious]

So you did benefit from a major case of good timing.

I think so - but imagine the situation.

We enter a burial chamber and see these items lying about. Sarcofa...Sarchogpho....upright coffins line the walls. The sorcerer concentrates for a minute and announces that a few items, including the whistle radiate evil.

Meanwhile, being an undead slayer my paladin's got his spidey-sense on like crazy, fearing an ambush - especially when the aasimar picks up one of the items (the whistle).

 

[enrious]

There are specific rules for spellcraft checking when there is no verbal, somatic, and material components. Off hand I do not remember the specifics of the rules.

I can't find them, but would be glad if you or someone else could.

I did find (PH p. 74) a Spellcraft DC15+spell level check but you must see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components.

The paladin's detect evil ability has no components nor does it alter the surroundings; it's almost like the paladin smelled or heard something. I don't think there's enough information available to even begin making a successful spellcraft check.

 

[enrious]

Oh and Doc,

Please don't get the feeling that I feel antagonism towards you; I was serious when I said that you gave me the idea of my paladin offering all he owned to get the whistle.

Plus you've made me look up rules like crazy

This is the first time I've ever played a paladin so I'm eager to hear criticisms of my play. Or even the view of a non-paladin player.

I think you've said some things that will help me as a player and a different perspective of the situation.

Thanks to you and everyone else who has replied (and hopefully those who will reply).

 

[enrious]

they havea Code which will shaft them if they don't take action over perceived unLawful or Evil behaviour. Where a group is more mixed, the DM needs to cut the Paladin some slack, or accept that the group might split.

Exactly!

I don't have the option of *not* doing anything about it. The paladin serves a god that has decreed that all undead must be destroyed and being a paladin he must destroy all evil he can. Here's an object possessed by a party member that contains both elements! It's not like the paladin can just close his eyes and stick his fingers in his ears pretending it doesn't exist.

 

[Skarp Hedin]

I think your paladin has behaved pretty well, really. I mean, look at a cop. If you were a cop and you saw your buddy Joe waving around ... a sack fulla cocaine, or something.. you're not too likely to go tell your sergeant about it, or whatever.. you'll arrest him if he refuses to fork it over -- and if he's -armed-? Well, if you're a lawful good cop who is on duty -- and paladins are never off duty.

While there's a lot to be said for maintaining party cohesion.. I as a DM and player have always always preferred players to roleplay well rather than maintain an adventuring party just because they feel they should.. were I the DM in question, I'd have no problem with your paladin killing the aasimar (not that I think you should do that, since you should try to work it out first), if it was in-character and reasonably realistic activity. Character sheets are cheap, and it's never hard to work another character into a campaign.

Don't get me wrong -- I really prefer when the party gets along, but they should not get along just because the puppeteer forces them to do so. My worst campaign issue with this was a guy who was always stealing from the party, always.. and then when they caught him, which they always did.. they never really -did- anything about it. They didn't kill him, or expel him from the party.. they just said "Oh Waldorf, you rascally halfling. Do not pick my pockets again, ho ho!". Well, they -finally- got rid of him, but only because he got himself killed running away from them after a theft.

So my point here is, play your character as you feel you should, and the aasimar should do the same thing, and hey. Wouldn't be the first paladin to have to deal with the corrupting forces of foul evil magic.

Oh, and I do definitely think that buying the whistle from him is the best way to go. Maybe some lectures, too. I wonder how long it would take before he got sick of long lectures about the evils of undeath and necromancy. Really long ones. With a collection plate.

 

[Always_a_DM]

Enrious : I like the idea of a paladin regularly checking other party members for traces of evil. I especially like the analogy of "checking his six" for bogeys. (Here's a bit of trivia - a bogey is an unidentified radar contact and a bandit is a contact that has been confirmed as "enemy" - I think. Correct me if I'm wrong though). From the Paladin's point of view, detecting evil would not be an invasion of privacy. He would be being ever-vigilant in the fight againt evil.

Also, cudos to all of the players in your group. It sounds like you're getting some really good role-playing done.

I'm impressed with the pally's actions. If he had just grabbed the whistle and destroyed it, that would have been Righteousness and Justice. Offering to compensate the asimar for the item shows compassion as well.

DocMoriartty - I disagree with your ideas on how restricted the paladin's dectect evil ability should be. However, I have seen some of the discussions on this board about what constitutes goodness and evilness and you can't get five people to agree on a common point of view let alone everyone who plays D&D.

It seems like everyone in Enrious' group is having fun so three cheers for them.

I have just re-read the first post and realised the paladin is a disciple of Kelemvor, the undead hating God of Death. Can I assume that summoning undead is a cardinal sin ? Commiting a cardinal sin is considered an evil act ? Would the paladin be expected to arrest/forcibly drag the asimar back to a temple to be absolved of his sin ? What is more important to Kelemvor - destruction of an item that can summon undead or respecting the property laws of the local area ?

It seems a bit strange to see a paladin of a lawful NEUTRAL god. I'm pretty sure you could have a lawful evil cleric in the clergy. How would the paladin feel about taking orders from some-one higher up in the clergy that always detects as *evil* ? Since Kelemvor is LN, maybe showing compassion to the asimar is a sign of weakness and the paladin should destroy the whistle by force, deal with the consequences later and perform an act of contrition for not destroying the whistle the moment he found out it could summon undead.

*Sigh* - if only my current crop of players could come up with roleplaying of that calibre. When I had Drakmar as a player, one time I went out of the room for a couple of minutes and my players kept talking in character to each other because they were having so much fun.
Here are some quotes from my current players:
"If we aren't going to have any fights tonight, will I still need to turn up ?" - The Monk
"If there's no combat, how will we get XP ?" - The Barbarian/Sorceror
*shudder* Sorry, I had to vent.

Now about this cleric of the luck god. If the cleric also thinks the item should be destroyed, then why not convince the asimar to let the cleric flip a coin to see who gets ownership ? (I love the luck domain special power). If the asimar wins the coin flip, it is the will of Tymora that the whistle not be destroyed so that it can help lead to a greater good. If the cleric wins the coin flip, then the will of tymora is to pull out the old mace and WHACK, bye bye whistle.

bah, I'm starting to ramble.