Great - Now *I* Have a Paladin's moral dilemma - Sunless Citadel spoiler

[enrious]

Oh, and I do definitely think that buying the whistle from him is the best way to go. Maybe some lectures, too. I wonder how long it would take before he got sick of long lectures about the evils of undeath and necromancy. Really long ones. With a collection plate.

LOL - I'll add a collection plate to the equipment list!

I'm leaning towards offering all of his belongings in trade for the whistle; failing that I forsee a visit to a few temples in the near future.

 

[enrious]

Enrious : I like the idea of a paladin regularly checking other party members for traces of evil. I especially like the analogy of "checking his six" for bogeys. (Here's a bit of trivia - a bogey is an unidentified radar contact and a bandit is a contact that has been confirmed as "enemy" - I think. Correct me if I'm wrong though). From the Paladin's point of view, detecting evil would not be an invasion of privacy. He would be being ever-vigilant in the fight againt evil.

You are correct about bogey/bandit, at least if the flight sims are correct.

That was my whole motivation in using the detect evil ability - it's second nature to keep tabs on those around him, especially his companions. As a player I take no chances just because it's a PC - the character wouldn't make a distinction between a PC and NPC.

Also, cudos to all of the players in your group. It sounds like you're getting some really good role-playing done.

Hopefully we can get more once we get out of the dungeon crawl; The Sunless Citadel was intended to be the players introduction to 3e (only the DM had played 3e before) so it was thought that it'd be a simple dungeon adventure to get us used to the combat system while giving us a reason to band together. The aasimar was looking for a fellow ranger than vanished while the paladin was looking for a paladin that had accomponied the ranger. The cleric threw in because it seemed like fun. Who knew that a simple whistle in a simple dungeon would lead to role-playing? Did I mention the end of the game session finding the paladin and cleric descending the dephts of a pit while the aasimar maintaining that the party should rest; refusing to follow the party because he considers it foolish to go into depths unknown with few spells remaining and half hitpoints?

I'm impressed with the pally's actions. If he had just grabbed the whistle and destroyed it, that would have been Righteousness and Justice. Offering to compensate the asimar for the item shows compassion as well.

Thanks for the compliment.

I felt that grabbing the whistle would be theft (although probably justified). But there was also the thought that if we fought and the paladin died, the whistle's evil would still be upon the land. Far better to let it go for now until reinforcements were available.

The compensation was intended as a face-saver as well as acknowledgement that the aasimar took the risks involved and should not feel that he was shafted. It's only fair, IMO.

It seems like everyone in Enrious' group is having fun so three cheers for them.

I am, at least

I have just re-read the first post and realised the paladin is a disciple of Kelemvor, the undead hating God of Death. Can I assume that summoning undead is a cardinal sin ? Commiting a cardinal sin is considered an evil act ? Would the paladin be expected to arrest/forcibly drag the asimar back to a temple to be absolved of his sin ? What is more important to Kelemvor - destruction of an item that can summon undead or respecting the property laws of the local area ?

Summoning/controlling undead = major bad mojo (sorry) - all undead (presumably even good liches) are an abomination and must be destroyed.

Regarding dragging the aasimar back to the temple - mind you my take is likely different from another player's version but in my mind not really. Evil will befall the aasimar if he maintains the whistle, but he's free to walk his own path. He's been made aware of the consequences (at least 2 churches upset with him) so it's his life; whether he believes in it or not he will be judged by Kelemvor upon his death. Keeping the whistle would likely not be viewed favorably by Kelemvor.

I think some of the books have stressed that Kelemvor's clergy (including paladins) are more concerned with undead and general goodness than they are about local laws - Divine law reigns over man law. In any event, it's a tightrope to walk.

It seems a bit strange to see a paladin of a lawful NEUTRAL god. I'm pretty sure you could have a lawful evil cleric in the clergy. How would the paladin feel about taking orders from some-one higher up in the clergy that always detects as *evil* ? Since Kelemvor is LN, maybe showing compassion to the asimar is a sign of weakness and the paladin should destroy the whistle by force, deal with the consequences later and perform an act of contrition for not destroying the whistle the moment he found out it could summon undead.

Not that strange in the Realms, plenty of examples (you can even have paladins of a nature goddess or a goddess of beauty). Kelemvor is a new power, replacing the previous CE god of death. Kelemvor stresses fair judgement and that death need not be feared because it is simply the next step after life. Life and Death are intertwined and cannot exist without each other. Undead not only corrupt nature but try to cheat death unnaturally.

There are still some LE clergy in Kelemvor's ranks but they are on the wane; Kelemvor decreed that they either had to become G or N or go to some other church. The church is in the process of changing following Kelemvor's ascension over the former Lord of Death.

I suppose that should the paladin encounter such an evil clergy he would obey orders as long as they do not conflict with the paladin's code. As far as doing any sort of harm to the clergy, he likely would figure it's in Kelemvor's hands not his.

Intersting point for attacking. Kelemvor is portrayed as being impulsive but he's not really portrayed as being malicious and no doubt some of the clergy would try to emulate that. I think that were the paladin a LN cleric or fighter he would feel justified. On the other hand, it could be argued that by removing the opportunity for the aasimar to do the right thing the paladin has commited a great evil. Depriving him of the choice by force is nothing more than than a LE act perhaps.

*Sigh* - if only my current crop of players could come up with roleplaying of that calibre. When I had Drakmar as a player, one time I went out of the room for a couple of minutes and my players kept talking in character to each other because they were having so much fun.
Here are some quotes from my current players:
"If we aren't going to have any fights tonight, will I still need to turn up ?" - The Monk
"If there's no combat, how will we get XP ?" - The Barbarian/Sorceror
*shudder* Sorry, I had to vent.

Hey, no problem

We do plenty of out of character exchanges and are still getting used to role-playing again. As the aasimar's player pointed out having a paladin in the party is perhaps more trying to the rest of the party than it is to the paladin's player.

(OT)

Favorite quote of the night was when the aasimar player listened to the cleric's player and me argue why the aasimar should get rid of the evil device.

"I just realized I'm adventuring with Pat Roberston and Billy Graham!"

Now about this cleric of the luck god. If the cleric also thinks the item should be destroyed, then why not convince the asimar to let the cleric flip a coin to see who gets ownership ? (I love the luck domain special power). If the asimar wins the coin flip, it is the will of Tymora that the whistle not be destroyed so that it can help lead to a greater good. If the cleric wins the coin flip, then the will of tymora is to pull out the old mace and WHACK, bye bye whistle.

bah, I'm starting to ramble.

The aasimar may go along with it, but I don't think the paladin ever would. It's far too serious a matter to be left to chance especially since Kelemvor has decreed that all undead and undead allies must be destroyed.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Enrious:

First off, your role-playing of a paladin is perhaps the first example of how I envision a paladin I've seen on these boards. You detected evil in your own party member, but didn't attack him immediately. Instead, you tried to do what's best for your god, your world, and your comrade as well. Good stuff.

One thing to add: if I were a paladin in this situation, I might consult with another member of my own clergy before taking any action, even informing other churches, against the aasimar. While the paladin is the mighty arm of divine justice, there are bound to be clerics of kelemvor who are wiser and more knowledgeable. I'd seek out a priest I could trust, a priest I respected, and see what his take on it was. He might have some advice to offer you (especially if the DM wants to prevent you and the aasimar from coming to blows! )

 

[reapersaurus]

Meanwhile, being an undead slayer my paladin's got his spidey-sense on like crazy, fearing an ambush - especially when the aasimar picks up one of the items (the whistle).

Must suck getting bum-rushed by a bunch of mindless, non-evil undead, huh?
Fat lot of good the spidey-sense does on skeletons and zombies...

 

[NiTessine]

What I would have done, after failing to talk him into giving over the evil little instrument, would've been restraining the aasimar without hurting him, taking the whistle, and beating it to bits with any convenient heavy object, like the priest's mace. And then compensating him for it.
Of course, that would most certainly a create a rift in the party, and then someone would be rolling up a new character.

 

[Klaus]

My players (NG ranger, NG cleric of Pelor and CG half-elven Wizard/rogue) blowed up the whistle once, but that didn't make any sound (and there wasn't any corpse nearby to animate), but they were afraid of blowing it again (the wizard detected Necomancy on it, so they know it deals with the dead; remember Healing is Conjuration).

After they finished SC, the cleric consulted the church of Pelor, and they did their research, and the whistle's true powers were identified. So the PCs gave the whistle to the church for destruction, and I handled them a big basket of XP for that.

Enrious: Great Roleplaying! Much better than most paladins I DMed for (either Lawful Dumb or Batman Wannabe). I'd tell the aasimar: "Let's keep that thing safe until we know its true powers, and you can have your pick of any items we encounter. We must not forget that the End Does Not Justify The Means, and that summoning undead is a crime not only against life, but against the poor soul bound to the corpse, as Kelemvor AND [insert aasimar's faith here] teach us."

On detecting a detect evil: Using the guidelines in Tome and Blood, I'd rule it as this: character must state that he'll keep close watch on the paladin during those times he's very concentrated and quiet. When such a thing happens, I'd have the character roll a Spellcraft check against DC 31 (30+1st level spell). If he rolls high enough, he notices something, like how the paladin's veins pop out, or his brow sweats a bit, or he clenches his teeth just a bit. Then I'd tell the character to roll either Knowledge (arcana) vs. DC 20 or Knowledge (religion) vs. DC 15 to know that a paladin can detect evil with just a bit of concentration.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

After about 5 minutes of the "lecture" any character worth half an ounce of his own alignment and moral convictions would tell the Paladin to shove off. If need be he would tell him at sword point.

Remember being LG does not mean you are always right. It merely means you think you are always right. There is a world of difference.

Maybe some lectures, too. I wonder how long it would take before he got sick of long lectures about the evils of undeath and necromancy. Really long ones. With a collection plate.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Nothing like a good dose of holier than thou and smarter than you Paladin to make everyone want to puke up their lunches.

While we are at it I have to ask.

Eaten any good books lately?

What I would have done, after failing to talk him into giving over the evil little instrument, would've been restraining the aasimar without hurting him, taking the whistle, and beating it to bits with any convenient heavy object, like the priest's mace. And then compensating him for it.
Of course, that would most certainly a create a rift in the party, and then someone would be rolling up a new character.

 

[enrious]

Enrious:

First off, your role-playing of a paladin is perhaps the first example of how I envision a paladin I've seen on these boards. You detected evil in your own party member, but didn't attack him immediately. Instead, you tried to do what's best for your god, your world, and your comrade as well. Good stuff.

Thanks!

One thing to add: if I were a paladin in this situation, I might consult with another member of my own clergy before taking any action, even informing other churches, against the aasimar. While the paladin is the mighty arm of divine justice, there are bound to be clerics of kelemvor who are wiser and more knowledgeable. I'd seek out a priest I could trust, a priest I respected, and see what his take on it was. He might have some advice to offer you (especially if the DM wants to prevent you and the aasimar from coming to blows! )

Hmm... Good idea! In the story background for the paladin he doesn't get along very well with the Kelemvor head cleric in Waterdeep but oddly enough he is on friendly terms with the Lathanderan clergy.

Ok, offer to give the aasimar all of the paladin's possesions, if that fails go seek the advice of a mentor type.

Excellent.

 

[enrious]

Must suck getting bum-rushed by a bunch of mindless, non-evil undead, huh?
Fat lot of good the spidey-sense does on skeletons and zombies...

Yep. Although it was probably the only time I'll ever roll 2 6's on my turn attempt.