D&D 5E Greater Invis and Stealth checks, how do you rule it?

[Maxperson]

Not everyone can divorce fiction from mechanics.

I can do that just fine. However, with combat the fiction ends up being 10 goblins all in front of me at the end of the round, meaning that it could not possibly be simultaneous in the fiction.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, ideally I think they should inform each other. But imagining that the participants in a battle are taking turns like the players at the table? I think that would spoil some of my enjoyment of the game. People are different in this regard apparently.

I don't like it much, either, but there's no other way to look at it that makes any kind of sense. If the fiction resembled anything close to being simultaneous, my PC would reach that door first, no matter what the initiative numbers are.

 

[Flamestrike]

An imp that turns invisbile and flies away is not automatically hidden.

It needs to take the Hide action.

Until it does so (a round at most) nearby creatures can still attack it (at disadvantage) and they can't target it with most spells.

 

[Flamestrike]

James Haeck on D&D Writing | Dungeons & Dragons

Above is the podcast that discusses this.

To paraphrase:

Being invisible does not make others unaware of you and your position. You only become hidden if you take the Hide action (i.e. make a Stealth check, which you can always do if you are invisible) and you beat the Passive Perception of your target.

At the DMs discretion, some circumstances might make possible for an invisible creature to need not a Stealth check to make himself both unseen and unheard (the definition of hidden). Such circumstances may be a significant distraction and fair distance. In those cases, always at the DM approval, an invisible creature benefits from being hidden even without a Stealth check.

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A Monk attacking someone and then sprinting off in the same turn, is not such an outlier, and neither is an Imp turning invisible and flying off on its turn.

The round they do this, nearby creatures can fire a few shots at the sound of them moving away, or swing blindly in their general vicinity (attack at disadvantage). Nearby creatures dont know their location with sufficient precision to target them with most spells (barring AoE spells) or to make opportunity attacks agianst them, or to target them with many special abilities.

If on their next turn, they're 100' or so away and they want to be quiet and Hide, I'd let them roll with advantage to the check due to distance.

 

[Xetheral]

@Ovinomancer

Ironically enough, I can make a case that the "default" should be "not noticed". At any given moment, the vast majority of the inhabitants of the game world are not going to be noticed by the PCs. For an inhabitant to be noticed, I as the DM have to decide that they are (a) within the detection range of one of the PCs' senses, (b) that sense is not impeded by the presence of an obstruction, (c) the signal-to-noise ratio is high enough to be detected, and (d) the inhabitant's presence is important enough for me to spend time describing their presence to the PCs. Unless ALL four conditions are met, any given inhabitant is automatically not noticed by the PCs. If that doesn't make "unnoticed" the default state, I don't know what would.

In all seriousness, however, all I'm trying to do with the above is point out that the word "default" is itself ambiguous. I would also add that it's also not particularly meaningful to declare a default when deviating from that default has no cost. From my standpoint, @Oofta is saying that the default is "GM decides whether or not a non-hidden creature is noticed", whereas you're saying that the default is "all non-hidden creatures are noticed unless the DM decides otherwise". That's a distinction without a difference--it's not even a meaningful loose classification tool, because how it plays out at the table will depend far more on how the DM uses their judgement than how they describe the "default" case at their table.

 

[Flamestrike]

you're saying that the default is "all non-hidden creatures are noticed unless the DM decides otherwise".

Well yeah. In combat creatures are either hidden relative to at least 1 other creature, or they're not.

And (by default) you're not hidden unless:

1) You were using Stealth before combat and other creatures in the combat failed to notice you when initiative was rolled, or
2) You take the Hide action on your turn and succeed in your Stealth check, or
3) The DM makes a ruling otherwise due to exceptional circumstances not contemplated in the context of a standard combat environment.

Moving 100' away on your turn while invisible and attacking that turn is not an exceptional circumstance that removes the requirement for a Stealth check to Hide via the Hide action.

Neither is casting Invisibility and then flying 30' straight up.

In both cases combatants can attack you this turn (at disadvantage) but they don't get opportunity attacks against you as you move away and cant target you with most spells and special abilities. Your very rough location is known with enough precision to allow wild swings in your direction, or shots fired in that direction.

The actions above have taken you a few seconds at most, and are largely simultaneous with the attacks coming back at you.

If you want to take advantage of your invisibility and Hide, you can attempt to do so at ANY time on your turn now you're invisible.

If you dont want to be Stealthy while invisible you dont have to, but the game will assume your very rough position is generally known by nearby creatures until you decide to do so.

 

[Helldritch]

James Haeck on D&D Writing | Dungeons & Dragons

Above is the podcast that discusses this.

To paraphrase:

Being invisible does not make others unaware of you and your position. You only become hidden if you take the Hide action (i.e. make a Stealth check, which you can always do if you are invisible) and you beat the Passive Perception of your target.

At the DMs discretion, some circumstances might make possible for an invisible creature to need not a Stealth check to make himself both unseen and unheard (the definition of hidden). Such circumstances may be a significant distraction and fair distance. In those cases, always at the DM approval, an invisible creature benefits from being hidden even without a Stealth check.

---------------------

A Monk attacking someone and then sprinting off in the same turn, is not such an outlier, and neither is an Imp turning invisible and flying off on its turn.

The round they do this, nearby creatures can fire a few shots at the sound of them moving away, or swing blindly in their general vicinity (attack at disadvantage). Nearby creatures dont know their location with sufficient precision to target them with most spells (barring AoE spells) or to make opportunity attacks agianst them, or to target them with many special abilities.

If on their next turn, they're 100' or so away and they want to be quiet and Hide, I'd let them roll with advantage to the check due to distance.

From what you just paraphrase, the monk fits just fine. I profoundly disagree with you on this. But this is a DMs' call. If my players or me were at your table, you'd be in a hell of a lot of arguments on your hands. Especially from the monk's player.

You insist on the simultaneous aspect of the round, and I tended to agree. But as @Maxperson proved with his goblin example, it is not mechanically so.

In this case, and even before Max, the monk is clearly fitting the paraphrased quote you so gently provided yourself.

 

[Flamestrike]

From what you just paraphrase, the monk fits just fine. I profoundly disagree with you on this. But this is a DMs' call. If my players or me were at your table, you'd be in a hell of a lot of arguments on your hands. Especially from the monk's player.

I dont brook arguments from my players when enforcing the rules.

I'd tell the Monk player if he wants to Hide, he can do so on his next turn, and that would be the end of that.

You insist on the simultaneous aspect of the round, and I tended to agree. But as @Maxperson proved with his goblin example, it is not mechanically so.

That's an artefact of the abstract nature of turn based cyclical combat rounds though. It's not reflective of any in game reality.

People arent standing there frozen in time for 6 seconds while other people move about the battlefield. It's all happening more or less simultaneously and consecutively.

The Monk in this case has expressly chosen to launch a martial arts attack (kicking and punching a foe) while invisible causing him to cease being hidden, and has then sprinted off at top speed 100' away from his target.

He has not chosen to hide. He has chosen to reveal himself from hiding, by virtue of launching an attack.

During the handful of seconds he attacks and runs off he is able to be attacked (at disadvantage) representing shots fired in his general direction, or his opponent advancing and wildly waving a sword about in front of him. He is immune to opportunity attacks for these precious seconds, and is also immune to most special abilities and most targeted spells.

If he wants to be hidden, he can do so a fraction of as second later at the start of his next turn when he is 100' away. I'd even give him advantage on the check to do so being so far away from the battle.

 

[Helldritch]

I dont brook arguments from my players when enforcing the rules.

I'd tell the Monk player if he wants to Hide, he can do so on his next turn, and that would be the end of that.



That's an artefact of the abstract nature of turn based cyclical combat rounds though. It's not reflective of any in game reality.

People arent standing there frozen in time for 6 seconds while other people move about the battlefield. It's all happening more or less simultaneously and consecutively.

The Monk in this case has expressly chosen to launch a martial arts attack (kicking and punching a foe) while invisible causing him to cease being hidden, and has then sprinted off at top speed 100' away from his target.

He has not chosen to hide. He has chosen to reveal himself from hiding, by virtue of launching an attack.

During the handful of seconds he attacks and runs off he is able to be attacked (at disadvantage) representing shots fired in his general direction, or his opponent advancing and wildly waving a sword about in front of him. He is immune to opportunity attacks for these precious seconds, and is also immune to most special abilities and most targeted spells.

If he wants to be hidden, he can do so a fraction of as second later at the start of his next turn when he is 100' away. I'd even give him advantage on the check to do so being so far away from the battle.

And I would simply force a check perception on the guards from all the shouting and moving because with all the noise the guards are making themselves they can't hear or see the monk. They know he is somewhere, that much is obvious. But they do not know his location. Don't forget that they are running too. So they can't attack anyway. If they want to attack, it is now even harder as the monk is now not 40 to 50 feet away, but 70 to 75 feet from the guards. Just readying their crossbow means that the lost sight of the minute details that the monk left behind IF he left any. Nothing can be less certain.

Don't forget that the guards are making noises of their own, lose sight of very minute details. They can't know the exact location of the monk.

As for the frozen in time. You want forward narrative and this is your mistake. You must narrate backward. Here is how the round really happened.

Bob the guard gets attack by an invisible opponent but proves to be tougher than the unseen assassin thought. He screams for help and as the guards in the other room ate coming to his help, he hears the invisible foe running away in the corridor. Bob and his allies get in the corridor but with all the noises their armor and their shouting do, they're not sure where the invisible foe went. Left? Right? Straight ahead? They are thus at the end of their round. Or almost. Do they split up and try to pursue the intruder? Or do they do as Jack says and stop moving to try to find details.

In game term, the monk got tje jump on the guard but failed to hit. Seeing that he went away at full speed. The guard at his initiative drew his sword and shouted for help. He then proceeded to run in the direction he heard the intruder going but after a few seconds he lost track of the monk because the monk is to far for the little noise he makes is covered by the guards' noises from their shoutong and their armor. They used their movement and their action to try to pursue the monk but their passive perception isn't high enough to notice the minute details as they made their check at disadvantage while running and shouting.

Had the monk stayed and used flurry; the guard might have survived and the monk would have been surrounded as then it would have been pretty easy to guess where he was, in melee with Bob. Bit the monk fled, this change a lot of the dynamic of the rules.

Time for round two.

 

[Flamestrike]

And I would simply force a check perception on the guards from all the shouting and moving because with all the noise the guards are making themselves they can't hear or see the monk.

You can do whatever you want in your game. But that's not the rules.

NEXT round when the Monk is Hidden (by virtue of him taking the Hide action this round) the Guards can try and find him with the Search action on their turns.