D&D 5E Greater Invis and Stealth checks, how do you rule it?

[Oofta]

100% agree -- sometimes you will know and sometimes you will not. But, according to the podcast and the rules, you will usually know unless there's a reason not to, and invisibility alone isn't enough.

That is true. It takes a DM making a judgement call on whether their location is known.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Rules basically say nothing about knowing the locations of creatures in general. The default state that you're imagining simply isn't something that exists in the rules.

Okay, let me try to break this down another way --

1. Without invisibility, it's clear that you will know the location of another creature because you can see it. There may be some edge cases, but, other than the hidden quality, this is the case. The default is that you can locate a creature.

2. Invisibility, therefore, needs to say how it adjusts the non-invisible case. It does not introduce a new baseline case, it modifies what's already there.
a. Invisibility first changes that you cannot see an invisible creature.
b. Invisibility says you are treated as heavily obscured for purposes of hiding. The hiding rules further expand this to say that you may always attempt to hide if you are invisible.
c. Invisibility says that you can (note, not may) still be detected by the sounds your make or signs of your passage.

Okay, so, then we have our normal baseline (1) where everything gets located. Then we have the changes to that baseline made by invisibility as (2). Invisibility specifically says that you can be located by the sounds you make or signs of your passage. That's a pretty clear statement that you are located unless you remove those things, which can be done by hiding. And, invisibility means you can always hide, so that's good!

There is nothing to say that you automatically detect creatures because that's the obvious baseline when dealing with non-invisible creatures. If it were not, then there would be rules for detecting non-hidden but unlocated combatants because D&D is a game that devotes a lot of space to being able to hit things, so knowing where things are is hugely important. So, baseline, clear assumption without invisibility is that you locate creatures. So, when invisibility comes in, it does what all specific rules do in 5e -- it says exactly what it does and anything it doesn't say is however you would generally do it. The general way is that you know where things are, and invisibility specifically does not change that. It says you're not visible, but that you can be located by sounds you make or signs of passage. It also says that the usual way of being unlocated -- hiding -- is facilitated but not improved or assumed by invisibility.

So, we have clear, understood baseline, and then normal exception based design, and nothing in invisibility alters the baseline except as specifically stated. Anything else is bringing in extra stuff.

 

[Ovinomancer]

That is true. It takes a DM making a judgement call on whether their location is known.

Wait, are you agreeing that the normal status for invisible creatures is that their location is known unless they're hiding and it takes special circumstances to change this? Circumstances where are, of course, open to individual GM interpretation? If so, I think we've made progress towards agreement.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

1. Without invisibility, it's clear that you will know the location of another creature because you can see it. There may be some edge cases, but, other than the hidden quality, this is the case. The default is that you can locate a creature.

Rules do not say this. But yes, it is reasonable common sense assumption that you will know location of another creature you can see.

2. Invisibility, therefore, needs to say how it adjusts the non-invisible case. It does not introduce a new baseline case, it modifies what's already there.
a. Invisibility first changes that you cannot see an invisible creature.

Yes. And as (like you just agreed,) our baseline detection relies on being of able to see, that has now gone out of the window!

b. Invisibility says you are treated as heavily obscured for purposes of hiding. The hiding rules further expand this to say that you may always attempt to hide if you are invisible.

c. Invisibility says that you can (note, not may) still be detected by the sounds your make or signs of your passage.

There is no difference between may and can in this context. The sentence merely means that it is possible to detect an invisible creature, not that such detection is automatic.

Seriously, more you try to rules-lawyer this, more you keep contradicting yourself. Just stop. I understand that you very much want the rules to validate your position, but they simply are too vague for that. You can play it however you want regardless of what the rules do or don not say. Just accept that you're interpreting the mess to suit your tastes like all of us.

 

[Maxperson]

5 foot squares are abstractions. Like turns, or hit points or rounds.

Its more correct to say that over the course of the round it has enough of an idea to be able to make an attack against the invisible creature with disadvantage.

So as long as the creature is anywhere within a spell's range during the 6 seconds, you'll allow a PC to target it, right? After all, combat is simultaneous, so if a creature moves beyond reach it doesn't matter, because at some point it was within reach while I was acting.

 

[Maxperson]

Me neither and so are my players. And neither are the rules.
Actions you can take are (PHB p192)
Cast a spell
Dash
Disengage
Dodge
Help
Hide
Ready
Search
Use an object and of course
Attack.
Stealth is not an action. It is part of the movement phase.
A skill check might be part of a move or an action. Example: Make an accrobatic check to jump from the stairs to catch the chandelier as it swing and shoot your hand crossbow at a foe right below with your free hand.

There are various activities that can require a Stealth check, but it's not a part of movement. There are things on the list that include moving, but moving isn't required.

"Stealth. Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard."

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Right. So I actually finally listened what Crawford says on that podcast. So he basically says that they intentionally wrote the rules to be open to interpretation, and if you want to run it as tactical game with the position known then that works and if you want to run it as more narratively as not knowing the location as 'the extra frosting' (that's what he said) then that works too. So this stupid debate about 'what the rules really mean' or even what their intent is is utterly bloody pointless. The literal stated intent of the rules is to be intentionally vague so that you can yourself decide how to handle this.

 

[Oofta]

Right. So I actually finally listened what Crawford says on that podcast. So he basically says that they intentionally wrote the rules to be open to interpretation, and if you want to run it as tactical game with the position known then that works and if you want to run it as more narratively as not knowing the location as 'the extra frosting' (that's what he said) then that works too. So this bloody stupid debate about 'what the rules really mean' or even what their intent is is utterly bloody pointless. The literal stated intent of the rules is to be intentionally vague so that you can yourself decide how to handle this.

Which is kind of what I've been saying all along. Want to always know exactly where a creature is you can't see that is 30 yards away? Go for it. Want to base it on what makes sense to the DM based on the current situation? Also totally legit.

What the rules don't say is that you always know where an invisible creature is. Where the rules are silent, it's up to the DM to make the call. Not sure why we need to have more than 400 posts to once again say that 5E is designed to be flexible and adjust to the preferences of the group.

 

[Maxperson]

First, I agree that D&D totally rules.

So here's my understanding of the example of play and the fiction it gives rise to:

DM: You come to a door. What do you do?​

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Max: I alertly go into the room. If I see anything, I leave and get to the rest of the group.​

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DM: OK, the door opens into a large room that's about sixty-five feet long and fifty feet wide, and you don't see anything until you've walked about ten feet into the room. (I don't know why this would be, but maybe there's some intervening feature of the room that screens the goblins from view until then.) When you get ten feet in, you see ten goblins against the opposite wall of the room, and they begin moving towards you. What do you do?​

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Max: I turn to leave immediately the instant I see the goblins.​

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DM: Make a Dexterity check to determine your initiative versus the goblins. The goblins got a 15. If you win, you can get to the door first and leave, but if you lose, the goblins will have gotten the drop on you and will get to the door ahead of you to block your escape.​

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Max: Darn it, I got a 10.​

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DM: Too bad, the goblins rush past you as you turn to leave, giving you the chance to make an opportunity attack against one of them, and stand in two rows in front of the door, barring your way. What do you do?​

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And so on...​

I honestly don't see how this is an absurd narrative.

The absurd part is the distance involved. 50 feet is waaaaay too far for them to get enough of a jump to pass an alert individual who spotted the goblins at the same time as they spotted him, and who is only 10 feet from the exit(60 feet from goblins). Even if he was somehow started, despite being alert, if combat were simultaneous they couldn't get more than 20 feet before the PC is moving for the exit.

 

[Maxperson]

If you look at the Hide section on page 177, it lets us know that a creature can stay hidden even when in plain sight, if the target is distracted. An invisible creature would have a far easier time of it. That portion of the Hide section is also telling the DM that he should be aware that special circumstances should allow special hiding.