D&D 5E Greater Invis and Stealth checks, how do you rule it?

[Flamestrike]

So, your Hide check, while invisible auto-succeeds since you are Heavily Obscured and all checks that rely on sight automatically fail?

We've covered this. There is no Hide check. You're not rolling to 'no longer be seen' with the Hide action.

In order to take the Hide action you first need to make yourself unable to be seen clearly. If you are able to be seen clearly, you cannot take the Hide action.

Being 'unseen' is the prerequisite to attempting the Hide action.

Example:

Its the start of your turn in combat. You are playing a Monk (Stealth +8, movement 50') and you are currently standing in the open in a large warehouse with large crates scattered about the place, the nearest one about 15' away from you to your left, and another 20' behind you. Your friends are fighting a bunch of Orcs 30' away from you towards the centre of the room.

You have 1 HP left, and no Ki points and you have decided you want your PC to hide and wait the combat out.

At the moment you cannot Hide because the Orcs are able to see you clearly (you're in the open 30' away from them).

So you move 20' to the crate behind you. and duck behind it. You now have total cover relative to the Orcs, but are not yet hidden.

However now you can attempt to hide (as an Action) because the Orcs can no longer see you clearly. You use the Hide action, and roll Stealth, rolling a 14 and scoring a 22 - easily enough to beat the Orcs Passive perception score. You are now hidden, and will remain hidden until you either reveal yourself or the Orcs locate you with the Search action, rolling a 22 or higher on their Perception checks (your Stealth result).

If you were invisible at the start of your turn, you would not have had to move behind the crate to hide. You could have simply Hidden (via the Hide action) and (if successful) snuck off with your 50' movement, slinking away invisible and hidden.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Let's look at a normal case. To hide, you have to be not seen clearly, so just not being seen isn't sufficient but it is necessary to being able to hide. Your GM will then decide if your action to hide is a success, a failure, or is uncertain. If it's uncertain, you'll probably be asked for a DEX ability check, to which you can add your stealth proficiency. Note: I'm being explicit on procedure, here, to make the rules case very clear -- in practice you'll usually just be asked to make the check without much fuss. The results of this check will go against the passive Perception of your foes and, if it's greater, your location is masked from them until the situation changes -- and by that I mean the situation regarding hiding, not anything else. This is the normal loop of play.

So, then, if that's that general rule, Invisibility would be the specific rule and we look at it to see what changes. The only thing that Invisibility changes about how hiding works is that you're always considered to have heavy obscurement for purposes of hiding. Further, the actual rules for hiding say that you can always attempt to hide while invisible -- largely because you automatically meet the "not clearly seen" requirement for hiding. No other facet of hiding is addressed or changed, so there's no other change to hiding.

This means that hiding while invisible works pretty much exactly like normal hiding in all regards except that you don't need terrain obscuremnet or cover to be not clearly seen as Invisibility does that for you. To answer your questions with this in mind:

No, your hide check doesn't automatically succeed because you are invisible -- to hide normally you must not be seen and invisible just meets that
condition.

Yes, an observer will rely on clues that don't involve seeing you directly to detect you while hiding. These may be sounds, or scents (depending), or other clues to your existence like signs of passage.

No, you do not get advantage on your hide check while invisible. Again, normally to hide you have to not be seen, so there's no difference or improvement with invisibility to hiding.

And, finally, yes, there's still stuff up to the GM, here. Invisibility alone isn't sufficient for that, though, it must be paired with something else -- be that distance, or environment, or the GM's ruling on how attentive an observer is. Invisibility, according to how exception based rules work, doesn't do anything to the normal rules for hiding except always provide the necessary requirement to not be clearly seen. If you're going to rule that invisibility means you're undetected, you should, for consistency, also apply that to any normal hiding attempt that meets the same extra criteria. And, you can do this, no problem. I think it makes hiding a bit to powerful, and it certainly makes invisibility more powerful. Even if you can locate an invisible creature, the advantage of being invisible are still huge. It doesn't really need the boost.

Yeah, to me, if you can't use ALL of your senses, you are at disadvantage.

There are many opportunities that allow you to hide. Being heavily Obscured isn't the only one. Someone might not be looking your way, or distracted, or behind heavy foliage. All these provide an opportunity to see the person hiding, in which case a perception relying on sight wouldn't auto fail. Being totally behind a wall, or a rock or invisible causes a perception relying on sight to auto fail and, therefore, cause them to rely on other senses.

That's the great thing about have 'keen senses' or 'scent'. You don't have to rely on sight. And if you have sight, you get advantage. Otherwise, what's the point of 'checks relying on sight auto-fail'?

I don't feel it provides much of a buff to hiding or Invisibility. Blur allows all attacks at disadvantage too, so, meh. Invisibility lets you hide easily but it costs an action. Seems balanced.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

We've covered this. There is no Hide check. You're not rolling to 'no longer be seen' with the Hide action.

In order to take the Hide action you first need to make yourself unable to be seen clearly. If you are able to be seen clearly, you cannot take the Hide action.

Being 'unseen' is the prerequisite to attempting the Hide action.

Example:

Its the start of your turn in combat. You are playing a Monk (Stealth +8, movement 50') and you are currently standing in the open in a large warehouse with large crates scattered about the place, the nearest one about 15' away from you to your left, and another 20' behind you. Your friends are fighting a bunch of Orcs 30' away from you towards the centre of the room.

You have 1 HP left, and no Ki points and you have decided you want your PC to hide and wait the combat out.

At the moment you cannot Hide because the Orcs are able to see you clearly (you're in the open 30' away from them).

So you move 20' to the crate behind you. and duck behind it. You now have total cover relative to the Orcs, but are not yet hidden.

However now you can attempt to hide (as an Action) because the Orcs can no longer see you clearly. You use the Hide action, and roll Stealth, rolling a 14 and scoring a 22 - easily enough to beat the Orcs Passive perception score. You are now hidden, and will remain hidden until you either reveal yourself or the Orcs locate you with the Search action, rolling a 22 or higher on their Perception checks (your Stealth result).

If you were invisible at the start of your turn, you would not have had to move behind the crate to hide. You could have simply Hidden (via the Hide action) and (if successful) snuck off with your 50' movement, slinking away invisible and hidden.

Yeah, I get that.

• You're rolling to make the person lose track of your location. That's the point of stealth and the definition of hiding.
• You need a reason for that to occur. Invisibility provides a great opportunity for that to happen.
• You need to use an action to to make that happen, which makes sense now that I think about it.

I'd give advantage for your stealth because, when you're invisible, you can go, literally, anywhere and still be totally obscured. Instead of 'behind that rock over there'. That's cool if other people don't make that adjudication. It just makes sense to me.

 

[Maxperson]

How is not offering free hide attempts gimping players' abilities?

How is requiring the expenditure of resources, free?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Yeah, to me, if you can't use ALL of your senses, you are at disadvantage.

There are many opportunities that allow you to hide. Being heavily Obscured isn't the only one. Someone might not be looking your way, or distracted, or behind heavy foliage. All these provide an opportunity to see the person hiding, in which case a perception relying on sight wouldn't auto fail. Being totally behind a wall, or a rock or invisible causes a perception relying on sight to auto fail and, therefore, cause them to rely on other senses.

That's the great thing about have 'keen senses' or 'scent'. You don't have to rely on sight. And if you have sight, you get advantage. Otherwise, what's the point of 'checks relying on sight auto-fail'?

You can't identify the person. You can't read their expression as part of a Insight attempt. There's lots of things that rely on sight that will fail on an invisibile creature. However, hiding isn't one of them, because hiding already requires that you're not seen.

I don't feel it provides much of a buff to hiding or Invisibility. Blur allows all attacks at disadvantage too, so, meh. Invisibility lets you hide easily but it costs an action. Seems balanced.

Well, invisibility also gives you advantage on your attacks and makes you effectively immune to many spells and attacks that rely on sight. Blur doesn't do this, but it also doesn't end if you attack or do something hostile. But, yes, invisibility does let you hide easily -- you don't have to look for cover or obscurement.

 

[Flamestrike]

@TaranTheWanderer

Rules for Hiding:

Step 1: Make yourself 'unable to be seen clearly'. This can be achieved by ducking behind cover, entering heavy obscurement (smoke, magical darkness etc) or by being invisible (which counts as heavy obscurement for the purposes of hiding).

Step 2: The DM agrees that 'the circumstances are appropriate for hiding'. In some cases, the DM might rule that you cannot hide where you are, for example, if you're in a room with a single monster, it's watching you closely, and there is only a single bit of cover in the room (like a lone pillar) for you to move over to and hide behind. No matter how hard you try to hide in such a situation, it's not going to work.

Step 3: If you are now unable to be seen clearly, AND the DM agrees the circumstances are appropriate for hiding, you may now attempt to hide via the Hide action. You make a Stealth check opposed by the Passive perception of nearby creatures. If you roll higher than the Perception scores of at least one monster, you are now Hidden relative to that monster or monsters, and your Check result is the DC of any subsequent Perception checks of those creatures to find you.

You remain hidden until any of the following happen:

1) You do something to reveal yourself (scream out, knock over a vase etc)
2) You attack someone. You reveal yourself automatically after resolving your attack, Hit or Miss.
3) A creature you are hidden from finds you, usually via them taking the Search action, and rolling higher on their Perception check than your Stealth check result.
4) You leave your cover, your invisibility ceases, or you cease being unseen for any reason.

Finally, in SOME cases, the DM might rule that you are hidden without you needing to make a Stealth check, and without you needing to take the Hide action. These circumstances are usually outliers, and reserved for unusual situations, including things like:

a) An invisible pixie, hovering near a waterfall, 200' away from the battle.
b) A creature inside a room of magical darkness, and subject to a silence spell.
c) A rogue, 100' away from the battle, behind a maze of crates, while his companions set off a series of explosions of multiple barrels of gunpowder, and their barbarian buddy distracts the monster by engaging it melee combat.

etc.

Are there any questions or challenges to my explanation of the rules above?

 

[Flamestrike]

Yeah, to me, if you can't use ALL of your senses, you are at disadvantage.

Being invisible is no different to any other form of heavy obscurement.

In fact it's worse than other forms of heavy obscurement (blinded opponent, you're standing in a large area of thick smoke, or in the radius of a magical darkness spell) as when you are invisible only, your opponent can still detect signs of your presence and passage including:

a) footprints/ depressions in the dirt, dust, mud, sand, carpet or snow.
b) splash of puddles as you step in them
c) 'human sized holes' in the rain, fog or smoke of lanterns
d) swirling smoke or fog as you move
e) grass and branches bending back as you brush past them

etc

In darkness, or hiding from a blinded enemy, or in thick smoke your enemy cant notice any of the above.

Invisibility is arguably the worst form of heavy obscurement. Not the best form.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

You can't identify the person. You can't read their expression as part of a Insight attempt. There's lots of things that rely on sight that will fail on an invisibile creature. However, hiding isn't one of them, because hiding already requires that you're not seen.

I never said Hiding would auto-succeed or that perception would auto-fail. I said that since using sight to locate someone auto-fails, and since they are forced to use other senses, I'd give them disadvantage on the perception (or passive perception) to notice them.

Maybe your threshold for disadvantage is higher than mine. Maybe if the person was hiding invisibly AND on the edge of a Silence spell, you'd adjudicate that all Perception checks auto-fail. Or maybe you'd adjudicate that there's a chance that someone could still smell them. Maybe, given they can only use sense of smell, you'd adjudicate that they'd have disadvantage to notice. Or maybe you'd adjudicate that smell is enough to warrant using Passive Perception at no penalty.
I feel that, if you have 0 chance of using one or more of your senses, you probably are at some kind of penalty.

Rules for Hiding:

Step 1: Make yourself 'unable to be seen clearly'. This can be achieved by ducking behind cover, entering heavy obscurement (smoke, magical darkness etc) or by being invisible (which counts as heavy obscurement).

Step 2: The DM agrees that 'the circumstances are appropriate for hiding'. In some cases, the DM might rule that you cannot hide where you are, for example, if you're in a room with a single monster, it's watching you closely, and there is only a single bit of cover in the room like a pillar for you to move over to and hide behind.

Step 3: If you are now unable to be seen clearly, AND the DM agrees the circumstances are appropriate for hiding, you may now attempt to hide via the Hide action. You make a Stealth check opposed by the Passive perception of nearby creatures. If you roll higher than the Perception scores of at least one monster, you are now Hidden relative to that monster or monsters, and your Check result is the DC of any subsequent Perception checks of those creatures to find you.

You remain hidden until any of the following happen:

1) You do something to reveal yourself (scream out, knock over a vase etc)
2) You attack someone. You reveal yourself automatically after resolving your attack, Hit or Miss.
3) A creature you are hidden from finds you, usually via them taking the Search action, and rolling higher on their Perception check than your Stealth check result.
4) You leave your cover, your invisibility ceases, or you cease being unseen for any reason.

Finally, in SOME cases, the DM might rule that you are hidden without you needing to make a Stealth check, and without you needing to take the Hide action. These circumstances are usually outliers, and reserved for unusual situations, including things like:

1) An invisible pixie, hovering near a waterfall, 200' away from the battle.
2) A creature inside a room of magical darkness, and subject to a silence spell.
3) A rogue, 100' away from the battle, behind a maze of crates, while his companions set off a series of explosions of multiple barrels of gunpowder, while their barbarian buddy engages the monster in melee combat.

etc.

Are there any questions or challenges to my explanation of the rules above?

I'm pretty sure I've agreed with everything you've said in this thread. I was just asking for clarifications.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Being invisible is no different to any other form of heavy obscurement.

In fact it's worse than other forms of heavy obscurement (blinded opponent, you're standing in a large area of thick smoke, or in the radius of a magical darkness spell) as when you are invisible only, your opponent can still detect signs of your presence and passage including:

a) footprints/ depressions in the dirt, dust, mud, sand, carpet or snow.
b) splash of puddles as you step in them
c) 'human sized holes' in the rain, fog or smoke of lanterns
d) swirling smoke or fog as you move
e) grass and branches bending back as you brush past them

etc

In darkness, or hiding from a blinded enemy, or in thick smoke your enemy cant notice any of the above.

Invisibility is arguably the worst form of heavy obscurement. Not the best form.

Yeah, maybe. Sadly, I've never seen (or not seen) a real life invisible person so I can only go on my own imagination.

Any of those things you mentioned above could sway me to not impose disadvantage. It really depends on the scene.

 

[Flamestrike]

I'm pretty sure I've agreed with everything you've said in this thread. I was just asking for clarifications.

I was just being as clear as I could be mate.

'Hide' action is a confusing name. The 'hiding' is more or less automatic (hiding is a prerequisite for the Hide action, in that you cant even attempt the Hide action, until you are not able to be seen clearly).

The Hide action represents you making an effort to [be quiet, move silently, conceal your presence and signs of your passage] while unseen.

Your Stealth check via the Hide action determines how good you are at [being quiet, moving silently, concealing your presence and masking signs of your passage] while you are unseen.