D&D 5E Greater Invis and Stealth checks, how do you rule it?

[Swarmkeeper]

The recording with James Haeck is really good. This bit starts just after 27:

So for the invisible person, stealth and more precisely hiding, can still be important if you really want to make sure people don't realize you're there. Because, again, as soon as you're making that Dex(Staelth) check its going beyond 'Do they see me?' It's 'Do they hear me?' 'Do they just notice my presence in general?' Because Perception goes beyond sight and sound.

and

... so you're already reaping the benefit of being out of sight, either it's because you're behind total cover or because you're benefiting from the invisible condition. Those things already have a lot of great, built-in benefits. What, again, hiding does is it pushes you a little bit beyond. It means they might not even know I'm here. Or they have no idea where I am. They're gonna need to guess.

This bit starts just before 31:00:

Does this make invisibility useless if we're going to assume someone knows where the invisible person is? Absolutely it does NOT make it useless because again being invisible gives you the huge benefit of advantage on your attack rolls against everyone who can't see you, there's disadvantage on all their attack rolls against you AND you can hide whenever you like. And then if a DM decides to sort of take a more narrative role in how he or she interprets the Stealth rule often DMs will just have monsters invisible characters because the monsters are distracted which is, really in a way, a roleplaying choice.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I didn't bring it up. The dude i quoted did.

And even that ludicrous example is a 'maybe' ignore the default rules.

And the person challenging you is the one who brought the podcast to all of our attentions as proof of their position.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Maybe. If they are heavily obscured and the chance of being seen is 0 because the rules say skill checks that depend on sight automatically fail. And if 1 of your 2 or 3 senses auto-fail, then you are at some kind of disadvantage. You might be feeling around for them which might offset that.


Which doesn't necessarily mean Heavily Obscured.
Hiding in some foliage or a bush might not be Heavily Obscured but you might still be unobserved.

Okay, I guess I don't follow that there's different levels of not being seen.

Possibly. Like, running away behind a rock or some bushes, lets you try to hide from someone who saw you running to the rock or bushes...I probably wouldn't give disadvantage to notice them...you know they're somewhere behind the rock, after all.

But if they go invisible and sneak away, you might not be able to predict which way they are going to go.

Well, yeah, the invisible character is hiding when they sneak away. I don't follow the difference in this example. The first character has to run behind cover to hide -- to be not seen -- and then you lose track of him and he can move anywhere he wants that's out of sight. The invisible character doesn't have to run to cover to not be seen, and after hiding can move anywhere they want because they're invisible. This seems like a huge advantage to invisibility in regards to hiding already, so why does it also need to impose disadvantage?

I think being invisible is a strong combo. So, probably disadvantage to notice an invisible person.

But, like, DMing is 80% making judgement calls depending on the situation, so it really depends.

Invisible is a strong combo with what? I don't follow. It's very strong when paired with silence, as I said, which seems good cause to grant a free hide attempt or impose disadvantage, as you're now down to only being able to observe signs of passage. If that's what you meant, that's what I meant. If you mean invisible alone is good enough for disadvantage on perception checks, you can do that, but the rules are pretty clear that's not what's on tap. As you've made clear, there's no disadvantage for not being seen by non-invisible creatures in order to hide, and invisibility doesn't call out any exceptions, so it's not meant to have special exceptions on it's own. Perhaps in combination with something else, like silence, or environment, or observers being distracted it makes sense, but the designers actually avoided adding that language into invisibility. You can, obviously, do whatever you like.

 

[Maxperson]

The monk is already invisible. The resource had been expended in a previous round. When it is said you are giving out a free Hide, it's on a subsequent turn to the invisible creature at your DM whim when there are no special circumstances. To at least some of us here, regular combat noise is not a special circumstance for saying an invisible creature is automatically hidden.

It's an ongoing resource that takes up concentration. It's still a required expenditure for the hide process we are talking about. Hide is never free while invisible, unless it's somehow an at-will power that lacks concentration.

 

[Maxperson]

I didn't bring it up. The dude i quoted did.

And even that ludicrous example is a 'maybe' ignore the default rules.

He's not saying that maybe it's enough noise(it's more than enough), he's saying maybe the DM makes the call. Not all DMs will ala @iserith for whom it appears that no amount of noise is enough.

 

[iserith]

He's not saying that maybe it's enough noise(it's more than enough), he's saying maybe the DM makes the call. Not all DMs will ala @iserith for whom it appears that no amount of noise is enough.

I think it would be fine to say a creature is automatically hidden as long as it's as noisy as my ruling apparently is in your head.

 

[Flamestrike]

The rules don't discuss it so there is no "default".

The rules DO discuss it.

They give you rules for:

1) How one becomes Hidden in combat (via obtaining total cover or heavy obscurement, taking the Hide action, and then beating the enemies Passive perception score with your Stealth check),
2) The advantages of being Hidden (advantage, disadvantage, square guessing).
3) How you can be found when hidden (via the Search action) and
4) What reveals you when you're hidden (attacking, being seen, making loud noises etc).

Re being invisible: The rules also clearly tell you that when you're invisible you can always try to Hide. In the absence of any rules to the contrary this follows the normal rules for hiding (above).

That's the default as per the RAW. You are NOT hidden until you can make yourself 'unable to be seen clearly,' you take the Hide action, and pass your Stealth check vs Passive Perception.

 

[Maxperson]

The rules DO discuss it.

They give you rules for:

1) How one becomes Hidden in combat (via obtaining total cover or heavy obscurement, taking the Hide action, and then beating the enemies Passive perception score with your Stealth check),
2) The advantages of being Hidden (advantage, disadvantage, square guessing).
3) How you can be found when hidden (via the Search action) and
4) What reveals you when you're hidden (attacking, being seen, making loud noises etc).

Re being invisible: The rules also clearly tell you that when you're invisible you can always try to Hide. In the absence of any rules to the contrary this follows the normal rules for hiding (above).

That's the default as per the RAW. You are NOT hidden until you can make yourself 'unable to be seen clearly,' you take the Hide action, and pass your Stealth check vs Passive Perception.

Incorrect. You are hidden if you are both unseen and unheard. That is also RAW.

 

[Flamestrike]

But if they go invisible and sneak away, you might not be able to predict which way they are going to go.

Depends on the result of their Stealth check result to Hide via the Action.

Example:

An Invisible (but not hidden) PC (3rd level Wizard, movement 30', Stealth +5) is in melee combat with an Orc (Perception +0, passive perception 10). It's the Wizards turn and he wants to sneak away from the Orc, taking advantage of his invisibility.

It is resolved like this:

1) PC Wizards turn starts.
2) PC Wizard takes the Hide action. He compares his Stealth check result (Rolls 7, +5 for Stealth, total of 12) v the Passive Perception of the Orc (10). As the roll is higher, the Wizard is now hidden relative to the Orc.
3) The Wizard moves away 30'. Note that even if the PC was not hidden, the Orc still cant make an AoO vs him as he walks away as the Orc cannot see the Wizard.
4) PC's turn ends.

The Orc now has no idea where the PC is. He cant attack him at all without a lucky guess.

1) Orcs turn starts
2) Orc starts sniffing around, and scanning for footprints (he takes the Search action). Orc rolls his Perception (+0 bonus) vs the Wizards Stealth check result (12). He rolls a 13 and passes, noticing faint footprints in the dirt on the ground, and catches a whiff of the Wizards spell components and sweat. The Wizard is still invisible, but no longer hidden relative to the Orc.
3) The Orc moves 30' towards the Wizard, ending in an adjacent square. Note the Orc cannot use its 'Aggressive' trait to move to the Wizard as a bonus action, as this ability requires a 'target you can see' and the Orc cant see the Wizard (the wizard is not hidden, but he's still invisible). He has to move using his movement.
4) The Orcs turn ends.

Next round, the Wizard can try (again) to Hide, and then move away, following the rules above.

Get how it works?

 

[eayres33]

Incorrect. You are hidden if you are both unseen and unheard. That is also RAW.

What makes you unheard is the hard part. That isn't defined in rules and that would determine how I ruled it. The group I DM for stays close together and is more a kick down the doors and be loud and boisterous at the tavern group. Not a stealth and deception group. Invisible paladin in heavy armor they probably hear you. A monk and a rogue if you dash they probably hear you. Half speed they don't regular speed maybe an acrobatics check vs their passive perception.