Greybeards & Grognards 2 "Who Dies" and My Life In Gaming Editions.

[Reynard]

I'm fairly certain (not 100% because I don't currently have the books in front of me to check, but about 95%) that there's a mention somewhere in the 1E AD&D rulebooks that a party that achieves surprise can choose to avoid an encounter entirely (slip back around the corner, close the door, etc.) in lieu of taking free attacks. And, honestly, even if its not in there, or not worded in that exact way, it's still within the spirit of the rules and the purview of the DM's judgment.

I don't have my books in front of me either, but I was just reading my 1E DMG last night and it does indeed say that.

 

[molonel]

I'm fairly certain (not 100% because I don't currently have the books in front of me to check, but about 95%) that there's a mention somewhere in the 1E AD&D rulebooks that a party that achieves surprise can choose to avoid an encounter entirely (slip back around the corner, close the door, etc.) in lieu of taking free attacks. And, honestly, even if its not in there, or not worded in that exact way, it's still within the spirit of the rules and the purview of the DM's judgment.

That may, or may not be true. But it still doesn't have either the overall feel or the mechanical effect of a character's individual capability. And the fact that you have two people claiming "I _think_ it's in there" doesn't exactly tell me that it's either a well-known, obvious or understood mechanic. I already knew that anybody COULD hide behind a pillar, if they had cover.

Surely, it's SOMEWHERE, right?

If neither you, nor Reynard know where, then saying that someone else who didn't know, either, is DMing the system badly is a little disingenuous.

1st Edition did some things very well. Skills was not one of those things.

2nd Edition did some things very well. At least 2nd Edition made a stab at representing non-combat skills for other classes than the thief.

 

[Mark CMG]

Surprise is usually expressed as a 2 in 6 chance for all parties concerned, i.e. a six-sided die is rolled with a 1 or 2 indicating surprise. Some monsters are more capable of surprising foes than the normal 2 in 6 probability, and some cannot be surprised as easily, so they have a reduced probability -- 1 in 6, 1 in 8, etc. Each 1 of surprise equals 1 segment (six seconds) of time lost to the surprised party, and during that time the surprising party can freely act to escape or attack or whatever.

I don't believe it is meant to imply that it is automatic to escape any more than to say that attacks automatically hit. A tin can fighter cannot just turn tail and run without making noise or being seen if he is radiating a continual flame spell from his sword in a dark cavern, though a thief/rogue might slip seamlessly into the shadows.

 

[The Shaman]

Surely, it's SOMEWHERE, right?

"It is always possible to flee from an undesired confrontation if the other party is surprised." - 1e DMG, p. 63, under the heading "Avoiding."

For those of you who enjoy earlier editions of D&D and want to be able to talk about those games without the discussion devolving into edition bashing over and over again, may I suggest giving Dragonsfoot or Knights and Knaves Alehouse a look?

 

[molonel]

"It is always possible to flee from an undesired confrontation if the other party is surprised." - 1e DMG, p. 63, under the heading "Avoiding."

So you surprise a dragon, or an incorporeal ghost who can run through walls, but you surprise them! So it's ALWAYS possible to retreat.

I'm glad someone explained that to me. That just makes all kinds of sense.

We don't like sniping aimed at other boards, so I've edited it out. This goes for whether you consider it to be 'the truth' or not - Plane Sailing

 

[T. Foster]

So you surprise a dragon, or an incorporeal ghost who can run through walls, but you surprise them! So it's ALWAYS possible to retreat.

I'm glad someone explained that to me. That just makes all kinds of sense.

Because the monster hasn't noticed you, because you succeeded in sneaking up on it, because that's part of what the surprise roll represents. QED.

P.S. Thanks for providing that quote, The Shaman. I knew it was in there!

 

[molonel]

Because the monster hasn't noticed you, because you succeeded in sneaking up on it, because that's part of what the surprise roll represents. QED.

Except you're not sneaking up on anything, really. You simply have a 33% of "surprise." Why? Who knows? Maybe it was asleep.

That's not a skill. That's simply a ubiquitous situation that applies to everyone.

On one part, I was not entirely correct. You can fight OR run away. That's still not "moving silently." It has no utility beyond getting the drop and attacking first, or simply not fighting and going back the way you came. Only a thief can do otherwise.

And that's still silly.

These are the stealth mechanics I'm supposed to be impressed by that it took several people who supposedly know the rules a while to find?

P.S. Thanks for providing that quote, The Shaman. I knew it was in there!

Not really. It's creating a blanket sort of situation where most creatures, regardless of the keeness of their senses or perception, are surprised 33% of the time and your large party, including the clanky dwarven fighter in his full plate, can then walk away in a complete bubble of silence. Yes, there are a few exceptions where creatures are surprised less often. But there is no utility or ability or skill represented that everyone possesses. You simply get a 1 in 3 chance to walk away from a fight.

Pardon my lack of enthusiasm over that rule.

 

[diaglo]

same holds true with surprise in the newest editions. if you surprise the other guy and don't attack. they aren't aware of you.

you can retreat.

 

[diaglo]

Except you're not sneaking up on anything, really. You simply have a 33% of "surprise." Why? Who knows? Maybe it was asleep.

that part you are handwaving.

it is the same with the newest editions. the same reasons surprise happens in 3.5 it happens in 1ed.

 

[molonel]

same holds true with surprise in the newest editions. if you surprise the other guy and don't attack. they aren't aware of you.

you can retreat.

You can retreat. You can move past them, if cover allows. You can stay and observe. The ability to sneak is not limited to these strange being known as "thieves." The world is not divided into Those Who Sneak, and Those Who Don't.

It's a silly and binary distinction.

that part you are handwaving.

it is the same with the newest editions. the same reasons surprise happens in 3.5 it happens in 1ed.

No, I'm not handwaving. In the newest editions, you have stealthy creatures who can hide and move silently. You also have creatures with extrordinarily keen senses who are not necessarily good at hiding or sneaking.

If if you're not a thief, you have all of the utility and options that only a thief had in previous editions if you manage to go unnoticed.