D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Parmandur]

Mixing ones inspirations up solves nothing.

It sure is fun, though: these are game elements, after all.

Yet that story describes how Norse themselves believed their ancestors wielded magical power, thus relates the folkbelief of the author himself. Meanwhile, he was off about Troy, but it turns out he was correct about Asia, with the name "æsir" relating to Sanskrit asura and Avestan ahura, etcetera.

Sure, but in the case of Greyhawk, the Northerners actually are descended from Atlantians. If the real Norwegians were descended from real Trojans, that does not mean that Trojans are Norwegians. Theybare bronze age Anatolians still.

So with the Suel, who are pulp fiction Atlanteans, even though the Northerners are derived from the Suel...the suel were not Northerners. All the other Suel descended people are not Nordic cukyural equivalents, nor were the original Suel.

Again, the story of the Northerners is the brave rejection of Suel civilization and building something new, as qith the backgroundnto the Conan stories. Their biological similarity is neither here nor there, because the race supremacist Scarlet Brotherhood was wrong about how the world works.

 

[Yaarel]

Sure, but in the case of Greyhawk, the Northerners actually are descended from Atlantians.

You keep saying that but it is untrue.

If the real Norwegians were descended from real Trojans, that does not mean that Trojans are Norwegians. Theybare bronze age Anatolians still.

But if Norwegians descended from Trojans, and the author says the Norwegians are the perfect exemplars of Trojans, and the calls the Trojans "evil racist genociders" − then that is reallife hatespeech against Norwegians.

So with the Suel, who are pulp fiction Atlanteans,

Untrue.

 

[Parmandur]

You keep saying that but it is untrue.

It is 100% true: the Suel deep history in the Greyhawk setting is based in Atlantians and other Atlantian expys from sword & Sorcery genre fiction. It really is quite explicity...?

But if Norwegians descended from Trojans, and the author says the Norwegians are the perfect exemplars of Trojans, and the calls the Trojans "evil racist genociders" − then that is reallife hatespeech against Norwegians.

That is like saying that because both Italians and Norwegians are descended from Trojans (which they are, naturally), thst therefore Italians are also Norwegians. Thst does not compute.

Untrue.

How?

 

[Yaarel]

For a moment, lets put aside all the errors and insults of the claim. If the story claims that Atlanteans are the Ur-Germanic race from which Germanic peoples descend, the claim that Atlanteans are a "race" is already N*zi ideology.


It doesnt matter what D&D players think about the Rhennee. What matters is what the Romani think about the Rhennee.


Yes or no. Early D&D has a pattern of using racist stereotypes to characterize its fiction?

 

[Yaarel]

That is like saying that because both Italians and Norwegians are descended from Trojans (which they are, naturally), thst therefore Italians are also Norwegians. Thst does not compute.

If D&D claims Norwegians and Italians descend from Trojans, and Norwegians resemble Trojans more, but Italians resemble Trojans less, and then calls Trojans "evil racist genociders", then D&D would be insulting Norwegians more and Italians less.


Anyway, it is shameful to Norwegians to even talk about the way D&D Greyhawk is demonizing Norwegians.

 

[Parmandur]

If D&D claims Norwegians and Italians descend from Trojans, and Norwegians resemble Trojans more, but Italians resemble Trojans less, and then calls Trojans "evil racist genociders", then D&D would be insulting Norwegians more and Italians less.


Anyway, it is shameful to Norwegians to even talk about the way D&D Greyhawk is demonizing Norwegians.

"Resemble" in terms of being more likely to have purple eyes and curly white hair, not "resemble" culturally. Again, to start with, the Noethern Kingdomgs are not Norwegians. The Suel really, really are not Norwegians.

 

[haakon1]

I greatly dislike real world cultures in my D&D.

That’s one of the reasons I prefer Greyhawk to any other setting. Unlike the Known World and the outer parts of Forgotten Realms, the major Flanaess tribes and nations generally can’t be pinned down to specific Earth analogies.

For my take of Suel, for religion, I use Greyhawk Suel gods + Norse gods. For their language, I use Finnish. For their culture, it varies from English in the Yeomanry and Keoland, to fantasy Viking in the Thillonrians, to the Lost City in the Sea of Dust. BTW, in 42 years of Greyhawk, no one has visited the SB or the Vikings, so it’s largely theoretical. We have had characters from the Thillonrian and from the Sea of Dust.

The theme: Northwest European looks + mage dominated ancient times + varying cultures in different regions.

For my take on Baklunish, for religion, I use Greyhawk Baklunish gods + Greek gods. For culture, I mix and match from anything “Eastern” from a medieval Western European perspective. So, aspects of ancient Greece, Turkey, Hungary, and Mongols. I don’t go for the lazy “Caliph + Al-Akbar means everything needs to be Arabic”.

Theme: Central European to Central Asian. Intentionally mixing up Greek & Turkish & Mongol to not be a copy of a single thing.

I’ll stop there, but similar stuff going on with my Oeridians (who are a mix of Dunlendings from Middle Earth + Celts + Germans + Italians + Spanish) and my Flannae (from Native Americans, yes, but also Sumerians, Swiss in Perrenland, and just weird fantasy stuff like Exag).

With only 4 major tribes, one exclusively for Norwegians and another exclusively for Arabs seems … limiting.

 

[mamba]

For a moment, lets put aside all the errors and insults of the claim. If the story claims that Atlanteans are the Ur-Germanic race from which Germanic peoples descend, the claim that Atlanteans are a "race" is already N*zi ideology.

distinguishing different peoples into races is not something they started, that has been around much longer. While it was part of their ideology, it was so for plenty others too, so calling it specifically N*zi is missing the mark

Anyway, it is shameful to Norwegians to even talk about the way D&D Greyhawk is demonizing Norwegians.

I'd really like to see a poll on this...

 

[Parmandur]

Interesting tidbit from Quests from the Infinite Staircase, in terms of how modern WotC sees the Setting and is using culture: the Greyhawk suggestion for I3 Pharaoh is the Bright Desert...right in the middle of the Flannaes near Greyhawk proper, which traditionally is a Flan/Suel mixed area of pastoralists.

So, the ancient Pharaoh Amun Sa might be part of the Suel diaspora after the twin cataclysms...that opens up some fun ideas.

 

[Parmandur]

Looking in Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel, here are the Greyhawk Oerth suggestions:

- The New Orleans/Carribean-esque city-state of Zinda is suggested to be set either in the Hold of the Sea Princes or the Lordship of the Isles, so thisnis another way to show a Suel culture. Names used there include Amos Nir, Azra Nir, Jacopo Ain, Jeli, Kala Mabarin, Myx Nargis Ruba, Samira Arah, and Zenia Ruba. Pictured like this:

- Tlepetec is a Central American Indigenous Setting that it suggests cna be set in the Souther Hellfurnaces, near the Amedio Jungle.

- The Persian-esque city-state of Akharin Sangar is suggested as follows: "The wester edg eof the Barrier Parks and the Crystalmist Mountains hold many isolated, arid regions where Akharin Sangar might exist. Isolated reaches of the Bright Desert also make logical locations for the city-state". That would make the city-state either Baklunish, in the neighborhood of Ull, or Suel/Flan near Greyhawk, the former probably fits better overall.

- the West African influenced realm of Djaynai is suggested dror the Coast of Hepmonaland.

- The Venezualan-inspired land of Atagua has the following suggesstion: "Atagua could occupy a region of the Plains of Paynims wast of Ket and the Barrier Peaks. Alternatively, the plains of the Great Kingdom might include or border Atsgua, with the land's culture holding connections to the sky-worshipoing Aerdi people". So suggesting this Latin American setting could be either Baklunish or Oerdian.