D&D (2024) Greyhawk- New Map, Discussion of Changes

[Charlaquin]

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Interesting. The “Effect” column on the Travel Pace table isn’t consistent with the exploration rules in the new PHB…

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Interesting. The “Effect” column on the Travel Pace table isn’t consistent with the exploration rules in the new PHB…

Presumably cause they were made before they had the final text. It’s possible it will be fixed by the time of release.

 

[Parmandur]

Interesting. The “Effect” column on the Travel Pace table isn’t consistent with the exploration rules in the new PHB…

Could be variants are presented in the DMG.

 

[Parmandur]

I'm repeating myself, but if they put out a similar DM Screen for the Forgotten Realms with a map set...

Interesting that the Greyhawk deity list doesn't have alignments (although most can be worked out from the native planes) or specifics on portfolios (although, again, the worshipers will give a good idea) listed. I'm assuming that's probably just for space reasons. I'm sure we'll get at least a slightly more detailed look at them in the DMG...

And St Cuthbert has had his "St" removed, although I believe that was revealed previously...

I actually quite like replacing the laundry list of Cleric Subclasses with a more freeform listing of the kinds of people who may follow a god: gives players and DMs more character concept freedom, and makes the deity list look less like just a Cleric menu to choose the appropriate widget.

 

[Demetrios1453]

I actually quite like replacing the laundry list of Cleric Subclasses with a more freeform listing of the kinds of people who may follow a god: gives players and DMs more character concept freedom, and makes the deity list look less like just a Cleric menu to choose the appropriate widget.

I wasn't talking about cleric subclasses, but what the deity in question actually  is - that Pelor is the deity of the sun, for example.

 

[Parmandur]

I wasn't talking about cleric subclasses, but what the deity in question actually  is - that Pelor is the deity of the sun, for example.

I do think we will get some level of write-up, for sure: what's in the chart, interestingly, seems Background-focused.

 

[Parmandur]

Going back to the DM screen version of the Flannaes map:

All of the content on the screen looks like it is from the DMG, so I think this division is as well. A Gazateer of the Flannaes div8ded up into these 5 meta-regions would probsvly be way more readable than a straight continent wide alphabetical list.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Interesting selection as well. Mostly what I would expect for that number of the vast Greyhawk pantheons from both an AD&D and 3e perspective, with a few surprises. Syrul but no Zagyg or Wastri, no Xan Yae.

....no Zagyg? NO ZAGYG?!??!!!!

I am going to take that VERY PERSONALLY!

Okay, looks like someone brought this awesome thread started by a brilliant and attractive person back from the dead. @Parmandur , I never knew you were a high level Cleric!

But I am looking at the list of gods now, and while it is super blurry, it is ... interesting. BTW, I tend to think of the "Boxed Set" deities as the iconic list, so I'm basing it off of that. I will also be looking at these in terms of their purported origins (re: lineages).

Thoughts-

1. 75% the "Baklunish" deities are gone. Geshtai, Xan Yae, Zuoken. Only Istus (fate) remains.
I can't speak for everyone, but Xan Yae and Zuoken were used a lot by me. I will miss them. But I can understand why they would cut this branch, except Istus, because I think she has a lot more street cred.


2. If you feel bad for the Baklunish deities, feel worse for the Suel. HA! No one feels bad for them. Seriously, though, they went from 12 13to ..... TWO THREE. Only Kord and ... Syrul (?!?) remain from that branch. Obviously you can't cut Kord (ugh, I regret that), but that was just a bloodletting.

EDITED as @billd91 points out, Wee Jas remains as well.

3. Flan- not just for desert! They keep almost all the deities (7/8), losing only Allitur. Makes sense, because the Flan had the highest hit rate for the cool gods. Whether you're evil (Nerull, Iuz) or good (Pelor, Rao) or just don't give a fig (Obad-Hai) they had something for everyone.


4. Oerdian? Bit of a mix. They lose more than half their gods (9/14), but it was all dead wood. They kept the good ones. Seriously, unless you're into the four season gods, you're not missing anything.


5. Finally, there are just the "widely worshipped gods." Weirdly, they chopped a bunch of these as well. This is where the biggest surprised come. 50% (6 5/12) have been excised.

Okay, you're probably not going to miss Blerred, or Joramy, or Myhriss at all. Lirr? I will miss, but you? Not so much, I guess.

But they cut two icons. First, the oldest "original" Deity in D&D- St. Cuthbert. Second, of course .... ZAGYG!
I get the first cut, even though it pains me. Look, maybe we don't want St. Cuthbert as an official D&D deity ... feel me?


EDIT- As pointed out below by @MonsterEnvy , St. Cuthbert was not cut, but renamed Cuthbert. Which is sensible. I appreciate the correction, and I blame society.

But Zagyg? Look, I get that I am biased, but he is kinda sorta integral to the story of Greyhawk, as well as the concept of ascension to godhood. This has me baffled (unless they are trying to move away from very specific Gygax-isms).


6. Wastri is gone. Which is ... understandable. Wastri is a big deal in Greyhawk, but I can certainly appreciate that they don't want to have a god of racism and bigoty in the pantheon.


7. I am very glad this is blurry, because it looks like they might have printed the Nameless One in there. Uh oh. I would say that you are all doomed, but luckily .... no one reads the DMG.

But you've been warned.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

....no Zagyg? NO ZAGYG?!??!!!!

I am going to take that VERY PERSONALLY!

Okay, looks like someone brought this awesome thread started by a brilliant and attractive person back from the dead. @Parmandur , I never knew you were a high level Cleric!

But I am looking at the list of gods now, and while it is super blurry, it is ... interesting. BTW, I tend to think of the "Boxed Set" deities as the iconic list, so I'm basing it off of that. I will also be looking at these in terms of their purported origins (re: lineages).

Thoughts-

1. 75% the "Baklunish" deities are gone. Geshtai, Xan Yae, Zuoken. Only Istus (fate) remains.
I can't speak for everyone, but Xan Yae and Zuoken were used a lot by me. I will miss them. But I can understand why they would cut this branch, except Istus, because I think she has a lot more street cred.


2. If you feel bad for the Baklunish deities, feel worse for the Suel. HA! No one feels bad for them. Seriously, though, they went from 12 to ..... TWO. Only Kord and ... Syrul (?!?) remain from that branch. Obviously you can't cut Kord (ugh, I regret that), but that was just a bloodletting.


3. Flan- not just for desert! They keep almost all the deities (7/8), losing only Allitur. Makes sense, because the Flan had the highest hit rate for the cool gods. Whether you're evil (Nerull, Iuz) or good (Pelor, Rao) or just don't give a fig (Obad-Hai) they had something for everyone.


4. Oerdian? Bit of a mix. They lose more than half their gods (9/14), but it was all dead wood. They kept the good ones. Seriously, unless you're into the four season gods, you're not missing anything.


5. Finally, there are just the "widely worshipped gods." Weirdly, they chopped a bunch of these as well. This is where the biggest surprised come. 50% (6/12) have been excised.

Okay, you're probably not going to miss Blerred, or Joramy, or Myhriss at all. Lirr? I will miss, but you? Not so much, I guess.

But they cut two icons. First, the oldest "original" Deity in D&D- St. Cuthbert. Second, of course .... ZAGYG!
I get the first cut, even though it pains me. Look, maybe we don't want St. Cuthbert as an official D&D deity ... feel me?

But Zagyg? Look, I get that I am biased, but he is kinda sorta integral to the story of Greyhawk, as well as the concept of ascension to godhood. This has me baffled (unless they are trying to move away from very specific Gygax-isms).


6. Wastri is gone. Which is ... understandable. Wastri is a big deal in Greyhawk, but I can certainly appreciate that they don't want to have a god of racism and bigoty in the pantheon.


7. I am very glad this is blurry, because it looks like they might have printed the Nameless One in there. Uh oh. I would say that you are all doomed, but luckily .... no one reads the DMG.

But you've been warned.

View attachment 380984

Cuthbert is there. He just lost the St.

Also last page posted about what might be Wastri's fate.

 

[Parmandur]

But Zagyg? Look, I get that I am biased, but he is kinda sorta integral to the story of Greyhawk, as well as the concept of ascension to godhood. This has me baffled (unless they are trying to move away from very specific Gygax-isms).

Given that the default hub is the Free City, they may want to preserve Zaygyg as the Mad Mage beneath the Castle.