D&D (2024) Greyhawk- New Map, Discussion of Changes

[Yaarel]

It is interesting that the map says "North Kingdom", makes me wonder how the text will explain that: they seem to be categorized rogether as the Ciking lands still.

Their names are all from the original Folio treatment, and fall under the same sophisticated and erudite linguistic principles that Gygax used to make the planet "Oerth" be pronounced like Bugs Bunny saying "Earth:.

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It is easy to explain Fruzti, Schnai, and Cruski, as exonymic spellings of indigenous "Frost", "Snæ", and "Hrímsk", respectively.

It would be like exonymic Greeks referring to endonymic "Yhuda" as if Ioudaia.

 

[Yaarel]

I'm not as well versed in Greyhawk lore as I am in Eberron lore, but I'm pretty sure the viking analogues are also Suloise. Plus the Flanaess being something of a melting pot, so you have Suloise all over the place.

I am unhappy with how the Norsesque regions are contaminated by the flavor Suloise racism.

In reallife, in the last century, the Nazi party culturally appropriated Norse heritage for the Nazi evils. This violation is deeply traumatizing to Norwegians.

It is extremely important to remove all Germanization from references to Nordic cultures.

To be clear, Germany today is admirable. German academia is respectful of Nordic cultures, unlike a century or two ago. The problem in the first place was cultural appropriation. There is no need to repeat this mistake for any culture.

It is important for D&D to respect any references to reallife cultures. This is part of cultural sensitivity.

 

[Voadam]

Prelacy of Almor added as a country, with Chathold as the capital.

Is that a change?

From the 1e boxed set

 

[Parmandur]

Is that a change?

From the 1e boxed set

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Map to map, 1983 to 2024:

 

[Parmandur]

Alright, interesting, my Google Fu suggests that the 1983 box set map actually changed from that of the 1980 Folio map: no Prelacy of Almor in 1980, but it is there in 1983.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I’m convinced Mike either had scoured materials, is a Greyhawk superfan, or had access to a Greyhawk guru when mapping this because little deep derails are all over.

Like placing the Isle of Cursed Souls from the unpublished Ivid the Undying, just off Aerdiaak (North Province), the small isles along the Spine Ridge seen in the 2e Scarlet Brotherhood accessory.

It is possible he shrunk Sybarate Isle (from Beyond the Crystal Cave) back to a 20 square mile island off the coast of Fairwind Isle, while LGG made Sybarate Isle into a 3-hex spanning island.

He’s got mountain passes drawn where Darlene placed them and He even seemed to place the mountain passes discussed in UK2 UK3 through the Kampf Mountains.

Just sayin’ impressive researching!

 

[billd91]

I'm not as well versed in Greyhawk lore as I am in Eberron lore, but I'm pretty sure the viking analogues are also Suloise. Plus the Flanaess being something of a melting pot, so you have Suloise all over the place.

Plus there's always the example of Keoland, the first post-migration kingdom to be really established in the Flanaess by one or more of the migrating cultures. It's a successful amalgam of Suloise and Oeridian cultures with no significant sense of Suel-driven white supremacy.

 

[Lidgar]

That's my theory: we know that there are 5 aample Adventures using 15 Dungeon maps that are hooked up to Beyond, and these seem likely candidates:

"There’s plenty more ready-to-use content in the new DMG, including several example adventures. These are presented in a streamlined notation format compared to published DnD adventures, to give new DMs an example that’s easier for them to use when creating their own homebrew content."

Thanks for this.

Not to derail the thread, but I wonder what the "streamlined notation" format will look like? Something like Shadowdark's approach to dungeons? Or just a few teasers to plant some seeds?

Back on topic, I think these changes are all fine. The map is still evocative with plenty of room to color in between the lines.

My only mild concern is naming the SB region to "Shar" will inevitably confuse legions of new D&D fans that came to the hobby through Baldur's Gate 3. Hence DM's will need to be prepared to answer the penultimate question: "Is the Kingdom of Shar ruled by Queen Shadowheart?"

 

[Parmandur]

I’m convinced Mike either had scoured materials, is a Greyhawk superfan, or had access to a Greyhawk guru when mapping this because little deep derails are all over.

All 3, most likely. He has done smaller scale Flannaes cartography many times in the past.

It is possible he shrunk Sybarate Isle (from Beyond the Crystal Cave back to a 20 square mile island off the coast of Fairwind Isle, while LGG made Sybarate Isle into a 3-hex spanning island.

He’s got mountain passes drawn where Darlene placed them and He even seemed to place the mountain passes discussed in UK2 UK3 through the Kampf Mountains.

Those details make it even stranger that the UK Dungeons aren't marked like the 7 major Dungeons.

 

[Nikosandros]

Alright, interesting, my Google Fu suggests that the 1983 box set map actually changed from that of the 1980 Folio map: no Prelacy of Almor in 1980, but it is there in 1983.

The Prelacy of Almor is on page 8 of the Folio Gazetteer.