Shard O'Glase
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Regdar said:
AH, a 13 chr that explains how you can successfully pull off speaking in the 3rd perssn consistently. A talent that I wish I possesed.
Greyhawk Setting Ressurected? Sorta Kinda..
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AH, a 13 chr that explains how you can successfully pull off speaking in the 3rd perssn consistently. A talent that I wish I possesed.
ColonelHardisson said:
In my review of Little Keep in Black Gate magazine (the pertinent issue should be in bookstores soon) I alude to this. The feel of Little Keep is inconsistent. I think that it is sort of the nature of the beast, though, and probably unavoidable.
There is a tension in Hackmaster between making it funny to read and playable on a rules level. In the rule books this was balanced very well because in the tradition of AD&D the rulebooks include a lot of advice interspersed with the rules. The advice (warnings, admonishments, etc. as the case may be) is where most of the humor resides.
There is little advice in a module -- most of it is confined to the introductory material. Modules are also more limited in size and scope, so there is not much room to add humorous mechanics in the adventure proper and if all of the NPCs were kooky then the module probably wouldn't be very playable. Most are a little quirky, but not with the same frenetic, hormonal kraziness that characterizes the difference between Hackmaster and 1e.
It is also a low-level adventure, so if you play Hackmaster because you want an "over the top" session -- well, the top isn't that lofty at levels 1-3. I can only imagine that the authors were probably feeling the pinch.
What you end up with is a solid adventure with a very funny introduction and the difference in tone is a bit off-putting. I like Hackmaster more to read than to play (that is just my personal preference, though, I'm sure that it is playable) so this was an issue. Others, who are looking for a good, playable module for Hackmaster, will probably be more than happy with it.
Cheers.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Enceladus said:I have the Hackmaster players handbook.
That is your opinion.
The game is different not better, this would be a fact.
Well, yeah, it's my opinion. I didn't know it was an encyclopedia article I was supposed to be writing.
Re: FWIW
I never said money isn't a consideration. I said it wasn't JUST about making money. And if you don't get a buzz out of sharing your work, then maybe you should find another job. I know writers with far more experience than you who still get a buzz out of what they do. But then, that's because they love it. Do you love writing, Gary?
Of course, if you believe that, metaphysically speaking, your work remains your property, then I would ask whatever became of the philosphy that 'Greyhawk is for all DM's and players'? A lot of people embraced that philosophy and a lot of players and DM's still do.
I would also wonder, if you don't believe in the above, just how you feel about the following comment:
In fact, I would posit that the material presented in both 2nd and 3rd ed., after your departure, has actually given far more options than it has closed down and that, in total, the world is far richer and more useable than it was before those materials were presented.
And that is all just on the basis that you use everything as written and don't alter a thing, which I would further propose that not a goddamn, single DM does, with ANY setting.
In fact, I would propose that Canonfire!, The Codex of Greyhawk, Oerth Journal and Best of AOL write-ups are proof in the pudding of this very notion.
Lastly, I would quote the Savant Sage, Iquander, aka Erik Mona, from a preface to one of the Oerth Journals, a fan-based publication freely available on the net:
"A common criticism leveled against the World of Greyhawk campaign setting is that, in the nearly 20 years in which it enjoyed full product support, all of its possibilities of expansion have been explored. Balderdash. This issue of the Oerth Journal yet again explodes that myth. As long as there are talented and creative Dungeon Masters creating new material for their own campaigns, the chance of expending Oerth's possibilities is nil."
Greyhawk, like no other setting, is that of the fans. To deny them, is to deny the great thing you did by creating the original material which inspired so many people to love the setting and create for it.
I'm honestly glad that you proved me wrong.Fourecks[/i] [B]You'll also notice that Col Pladoh hasn't piped up yet. And I highly doubt he will...[/B][/QUOTE] [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Col_Pladoh said:
Nice flame. Feeling a little testy?Fourecks[/i] [B]Writing and publishing isn't just about making money said:
I never said money isn't a consideration. I said it wasn't JUST about making money. And if you don't get a buzz out of sharing your work, then maybe you should find another job. I know writers with far more experience than you who still get a buzz out of what they do. But then, that's because they love it. Do you love writing, Gary?
You ignored the crux of what I was saying and also the comment about it being a metaphysical argument.Fourecks[/i] [B]Whenever someone writes something and publishes it said:
Of course, if you believe that, metaphysically speaking, your work remains your property, then I would ask whatever became of the philosphy that 'Greyhawk is for all DM's and players'? A lot of people embraced that philosophy and a lot of players and DM's still do.
I would also wonder, if you don't believe in the above, just how you feel about the following comment:
I disagree that there has been any work that has quantified or over-structured the setting beyond the ability to enable DM's to create further material for their own use. Nor do I think there are any less an amount of mysterious or anomalous things.
In fact, I would posit that the material presented in both 2nd and 3rd ed., after your departure, has actually given far more options than it has closed down and that, in total, the world is far richer and more useable than it was before those materials were presented.
And that is all just on the basis that you use everything as written and don't alter a thing, which I would further propose that not a goddamn, single DM does, with ANY setting.
In fact, I would propose that Canonfire!, The Codex of Greyhawk, Oerth Journal and Best of AOL write-ups are proof in the pudding of this very notion.
Lastly, I would quote the Savant Sage, Iquander, aka Erik Mona, from a preface to one of the Oerth Journals, a fan-based publication freely available on the net:
"A common criticism leveled against the World of Greyhawk campaign setting is that, in the nearly 20 years in which it enjoyed full product support, all of its possibilities of expansion have been explored. Balderdash. This issue of the Oerth Journal yet again explodes that myth. As long as there are talented and creative Dungeon Masters creating new material for their own campaigns, the chance of expending Oerth's possibilities is nil."
Greyhawk, like no other setting, is that of the fans. To deny them, is to deny the great thing you did by creating the original material which inspired so many people to love the setting and create for it.
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ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
I don't see how the former contradicts the latter. He's saying in the former (I'm assuming you meant to attribute the quote to him, not yourself) that the setting is intended to provide a lot of latitude for the individual DM. In the latter, he's talking about being paid for what he wrote. I think I see the connection you're trying to make, but it's not there. Are you saying that since he wants such a setting to be that customizable, that he shouldn't be paid for it?
Col_Pladoh
Gary Gygax
Re: Re: FWIW
That's pretty obvious from the lengths you went to "respond."
Expressing an opinion is a flame? My, how touchy you seem yto be about the subject in question.
Gosh, kid, I always thought one got a buzz from alcohol and the like, and that a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment came from publishing one's cretaive work. That work, just to remind you, is why you are posting on this website. I have been paid for my writing for something over 30 years now, and I've lover the work since the begining.
Really? You "know writers with far more experience then" I have? Know them personally? Pray tell who is in that list? As a matter of fact I have written more gaming works than anyone I know of, and am actively at it, being published. Admittedly having only nine novels, one collection of short stories, two "how-to" books and a handful of short stories published doesn't stack up against a lot of other fiction authors. When the gaming products and articles and essays are added though, the millions of words there weigh pretty heavily. So come on, and enlighten me about the "far more experienced" persons you know well enough to judge their motives. Frankly, I think you are just blowing smoke to i8mpress the audience, but I could be in error.
Metaphysics is not somethiing I waste time considering opther than for mental exercise when enjoying the company of friends. To me it is, as is philosophy about which Ambrose Bierce said: "A road of many paths all leading fron nowhere to no place.
Thet there are legal rights held by the owners of Intellectual Property is not sonething one need "believe in," for that is fact.
The fact is WOtC owns the legal rights to the World of Greyhawk, and of coruse that's a fact I do not dispute.
I haven't the faintest idea what you mean. Ther fans can have whatever WotC chooses to give them. The IP does not belong to me, and i have no say in the matter.
You have lost me totally.
A union organizer I am not. Sorry.
Another assertion of baseless sort; "reputation for demanding unreasonable prices for..." What is that statement based on? David Kenzer's words? As a matter of fact I have had offers from other publishers who felt the royalty rates requested were fair and reasonable. So you can't have spokne to them. As I have not shopped the project elsewhere, that leaves only Kenzer. Sir, I say again you are blowing smoke.
I add that I have not offered any Greyhawk related work to any publisher, other than my fiction based thereon, that being my IP or that of Trigee Enterprises. Thus if there is such a "reputation" being bandied about, it is a complete falsification and a canard.
You are entitled to your opinion. You have stated it, at length I must add, and we clearly do not agree.
Heh, and I read that differently. It is possibly for "the fans" but not for the creative DM who wants his WOrld of Greyhawk to be unique.
There is no sense in my arguing with a fait accompli, and the matter is as it is. I have no quarrel with those who find it to their liking. It is a matter of perspective and individual preference.
Cheerio,
Gary
Fourecks said:
That's pretty obvious from the lengths you went to "respond."
Expressing an opinion is a flame? My, how touchy you seem yto be about the subject in question.
Gosh, kid, I always thought one got a buzz from alcohol and the like, and that a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment came from publishing one's cretaive work. That work, just to remind you, is why you are posting on this website. I have been paid for my writing for something over 30 years now, and I've lover the work since the begining.
Really? You "know writers with far more experience then" I have? Know them personally? Pray tell who is in that list? As a matter of fact I have written more gaming works than anyone I know of, and am actively at it, being published. Admittedly having only nine novels, one collection of short stories, two "how-to" books and a handful of short stories published doesn't stack up against a lot of other fiction authors. When the gaming products and articles and essays are added though, the millions of words there weigh pretty heavily. So come on, and enlighten me about the "far more experienced" persons you know well enough to judge their motives. Frankly, I think you are just blowing smoke to i8mpress the audience, but I could be in error.
Metaphysics is not somethiing I waste time considering opther than for mental exercise when enjoying the company of friends. To me it is, as is philosophy about which Ambrose Bierce said: "A road of many paths all leading fron nowhere to no place.
Thet there are legal rights held by the owners of Intellectual Property is not sonething one need "believe in," for that is fact.
The fact is WOtC owns the legal rights to the World of Greyhawk, and of coruse that's a fact I do not dispute.
I haven't the faintest idea what you mean. Ther fans can have whatever WotC chooses to give them. The IP does not belong to me, and i have no say in the matter.
You have lost me totally.
A union organizer I am not. Sorry.
Another assertion of baseless sort; "reputation for demanding unreasonable prices for..." What is that statement based on? David Kenzer's words? As a matter of fact I have had offers from other publishers who felt the royalty rates requested were fair and reasonable. So you can't have spokne to them. As I have not shopped the project elsewhere, that leaves only Kenzer. Sir, I say again you are blowing smoke.
I add that I have not offered any Greyhawk related work to any publisher, other than my fiction based thereon, that being my IP or that of Trigee Enterprises. Thus if there is such a "reputation" being bandied about, it is a complete falsification and a canard.
You are entitled to your opinion. You have stated it, at length I must add, and we clearly do not agree.
Heh, and I read that differently. It is possibly for "the fans" but not for the creative DM who wants his WOrld of Greyhawk to be unique.
There is no sense in my arguing with a fait accompli, and the matter is as it is. I have no quarrel with those who find it to their liking. It is a matter of perspective and individual preference.
Cheerio,
Gary
I really dispise comments like this. All it says is, "If it weren't for me, you couldn't make opinions about this because it wouldn't have existed. So, although you're free to express your opinion, mine is more important because I'm me."
As no one who has posted on this thread is involved with the project of the Hackmaster Greyhawk a more constructive conversation might benefit everyone here.
Oops, fixed.ColonelHardisson said:
Err... no, not at all. I'm saying that, metaphysically speaking, ie. not taking into consideration temporal laws, the setting is the fans.ColonelHardisson said:
By saying that it's customizable and by encouraging the input of fans, this only reinforces that stance. By then turning around and saying, "It's mine, mine, all mine!" I feel is a contradiction of the initial attitude.
Col_Pladoh
Gary Gygax
Fourecks said:
Pardon me, but I have not made any claim to ownership of the World of Greyhawk since 1985.
Of course I have properties that were developed concurrently with the material that TSR acquired and is now the property of WotC/Hasbro, but those were not divested by me. These are indeed my IPs. If they are developed and published, appropriate notice of that fact will be given on such works.
Cheerio,
Gary
Re: Re: Re: FWIW
And yes, Gary, I know them personally.
And no, I don't feel the need to name drop. Aside from which, I don't wish to associate myself with them, considering the vast amount of people I piss off on the net.
And I said 'more experience', not 'more experience writing gaming material'. That means the doors are open to any writer, regardless of whether they contributed to gaming or not. In fact, the vast majority of writers, publishers, editors, etc. that I know, have absolutely nothing to do with gaming, on any level.
As to whether I'm blowing smoke or not... eh, I really don't care what the audience thinks of me, as is evidenced by the mere fact that I post here. I have no doubt that my popularity is in the negatives here.
Whether deserved or not, is irrelevant to whether or not the reputation exists. I was merely pointing out the fact that you have that reputation.
In the way you did, yes, it is.Col_Pladoh said:
Firstly, there is no mention of my age anywhere in this thread so I can only determine this comment to be derogatory. This, is a flame, whether you agree or not.Col_Pladoh said:
No, I'm posting 'on this website' because I love my hobby. I'm posting in this thread because I love the Greyhawk setting. Something which I would argue, you do not.Col_Pladoh said:
Yes, Gary, there are people in this world who have more experience than you do in writing and publishing.Col_Pladoh said:
And yes, Gary, I know them personally.
And no, I don't feel the need to name drop. Aside from which, I don't wish to associate myself with them, considering the vast amount of people I piss off on the net.
And I said 'more experience', not 'more experience writing gaming material'. That means the doors are open to any writer, regardless of whether they contributed to gaming or not. In fact, the vast majority of writers, publishers, editors, etc. that I know, have absolutely nothing to do with gaming, on any level.
As to whether I'm blowing smoke or not... eh, I really don't care what the audience thinks of me, as is evidenced by the mere fact that I post here. I have no doubt that my popularity is in the negatives here.
It is not something I made up, which is why I posted the comment by David Kenzer. It is also not based on David's comments. The fact that we both have that understanding is proof that the reputation exists.Col_Pladoh said:
Whether deserved or not, is irrelevant to whether or not the reputation exists. I was merely pointing out the fact that you have that reputation.
So you are saying that you dislike most, if not all, products that have been produced for Greyhawk after your departure from TSR, and think that they are detrimental to the setting as a whole?Col_Pladoh said:
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