Grognard's First Take On 4e

[Goobermunch]

More like judging a book based on the Cliff Notes.

Nah. Really, it's more like judging a game system based on the intro adventure.

--G

 

[Zil]

Interesting. Without actually seeing the adventure, I'm not sure what the complaint over the stat blocks and tactical setup was. From reading other notes in this thread, I'm guessing they've stuck with a similar approach to what they did with the Ravenloft 3E adventure, Demonweb Pits, Eyes of the Lich Queen, etc? I've never been sure about that format. Sometimes it just gets me confused when things in the regular section don't seem to match what is described in the tactical encounter section, plus there is all the flipping back and forth when reading through the adventure. Or perhaps they've done something different? I haven't actually run any of the adventures with the new format so perhaps it works well in actual play. It just never quite worked (for me) when reading the adventure.

As for how open minded or closed minded the original poster was, this is all kind of silly. Essentially the post boiled down to he was a strong doubter of the merits of 4E but was secretly hoping to be converted in some small way, but wasn't. What's the reason to get upset about that?

As for using trailers to pre-judge whether you want to invest the money (and time) in a movie, what's the problem with that? 9 times out of 10 a trailer oversells rather than undersells a movie. If the trailer seems bad to you, odds are you won't like the movie.

My own plans have been to pick up Keep on the Shadowfell even though I have not liked most of what I've read or heard about 4E just in case all of that is somehow wrong. I fully expect this adventure to capture the essence of the new game. If not, then it was a poor decision to release this particular adventure before the rule set with a set of quick play rules. While I have pretty firm plans to continue play with 3.5 and then switch to Pathfinder for the next while, I still might pick up the main 4E rules if Keep on the Shadowfell seems interesting. If not, it will be a while longer before I pick up the core rules, but I expect I will eventually get them just because I'm a bit of a D&D completest.

 

[tomBitonti]

... I fully expect this adventure to capture the essence of the new game. If not, then it was a poor decision to release this particular adventure before the rule set with a set of quick play rules. ...

Nice post, Zil.

I was wanting to post about what is written in the quote, but instead will only emphasize: This adventure is designed to introduce the new edition. It should provide a good estimate of what's there.

 

[Alynnalizza]

Well, I'd certainly avoid it then if that's the concern. You might find something you like.

And for the record, I wasn't trying to be 'inflammatory'. I'm glad your line of thinking is rational, reasonable, and not some high-minded grognard aggrandizement of the older edition(s). For what it's worth, I apologize for using the terms 'obtuse' and 'bull-headed'. I knee-jerked a little there, not having the full breadth of your reasoning in front of me.

No problems, we are all friends here as far as I'm concerned. We all love the game D&D, if not all creations of it, at least one.

::twitch, twitch:: 4 years of counseling ::twitch, twitch:: and I'm much better now. ::twitch, twitch:: heehee.

 

[Spatula]

Interesting. Without actually seeing the adventure, I'm not sure what the complaint over the stat blocks and tactical setup was. From reading other notes in this thread, I'm guessing they've stuck with a similar approach to what they did with the Ravenloft 3E adventure, Demonweb Pits, Eyes of the Lich Queen, etc? I've never been sure about that format. Sometimes it just gets me confused when things in the regular section don't seem to match what is described in the tactical encounter section, plus there is all the flipping back and forth when reading through the adventure. Or perhaps they've done something different? I haven't actually run any of the adventures with the new format so perhaps it works well in actual play. It just never quite worked (for me) when reading the adventure.

I rather like the format in KotS, although it takes up a lot of extra space via reprinting monster stats for each encounter. Obviously there's a tradeoff there between convenience and space. You get the setup, relevant skill DCs (perception for noticing the monsters or whatever), a rundown of how the monsters respond to the PCs, then the monster stats, overall tactics, later developments, and finally treasure.

As for how open minded or closed minded the original poster was, this is all kind of silly. Essentially the post boiled down to he was a strong doubter of the merits of 4E but was secretly hoping to be converted in some small way, but wasn't. What's the reason to get upset about that?

You're not allowed to reject 4e after being exposed to its awesomesauce. It's like insulting someone's girlfriend! Or spitting out the sacred kool-aid. Either way, it's a grevious act that cannot go unanswered... or un-rationalized (at some point, people are going to have to drop the "it's not the full package" excuse and admit that some people just might not like it - and no, that doesn't invalidate your liking it).

 

[malraux]

For those familiar with it, how does the adventure of KotS compare with Sunless Citadel? Not in terms of production values, but in terms of giving a good adventure while introducing the rules?

 

[Crothian]

For those familiar with it, how does the adventure of KotS compare with Sunless Citadel? Not in terms of production values, but in terms of giving a good adventure while introducing the rules?

Well, Sunless Citadel do not introduce the new rules. They were out and the book assumed that you knew them. Sunless Citadel was also not restricted in the rules it used since it was based on the all of them. So, they really can't be compared like that.

 

[Blackeagle]

This adventure is designed to introduce the new edition. It should provide a good estimate of what's there.

Yeah, but there's only so much you can do in 25 pages of rules material (and 10 pages of that is the character sheets).

 

[Minicol]

Possibly because his quote says "opinions on 4e" and he hasn't seen "4e" yet, only the preview adventure. That's like judging a movie from a teaser trailer.

Which is perfectly acceptable since a trailer is supposed to be the best part.

 

[eleran]

Couldn't resist getting Shadowfell from Amazon (the 3 maps alone are worth the $20). Though I never plan to run 4e, I was secretly hoping it would be cool. Having glanced through it last night, my initial take on 4e is -

Wow, it's much worse than I could ever believe and extremely unappealing to a 3.5e grognard. I was open-minded, truly, and still need to read it more carefully, but if you're in the "I'm going to play 3.5e forever" camp, the real thing is not going to change your mind. It's just what we've been predicting and more.

A couple of key issues:

1. The Rules: The rules don't feel like 3e at all, and frankly don't seem any more "streamlined" on first glance. This is essentially a new game system. It's not unlike the feeling I got when I picked up Dark Heresy or Solomon Kane - my eyes just kind of glazed over the rules, and I'm pretty adept at all three previous editions. And the replacement/redefined rules seem clunky. Is it really easier to categorize monsters by type and by minion/lurker/fodder/whatever?

2. The Adventure: I don't like the look and feel of the adventure itself, from the new stat blocks to the mashing together of fluff, tactical encounters, and monster stats in the same page. It's not visually pleasing nor intuitive. Furthermore, nothing here makes me terrified to enter the Shadowfell.

I've got to say it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I preordered the PHB, despite my vow not to ever run 4e, because I was still curious to see what had changed and what exciting ideas I could port into 3.5e. After seeing Shadowfell, I'm probably going to cancel it.

Words cannot thank you enough....for confirming that why i like 4e so much better than 3.x