Grognard's First Take On 4e

[Wolfspider]

* Unless Oprah adds the core books to her Book of the Month club.

Wizards of the Coast should be so lucky....

 

[nute]

Can I ask, respectfully, why you think he's being closed minded about it?

Possibly because his quote says "opinions on 4e" and he hasn't seen "4e" yet, only the preview adventure. That's like judging a movie from a teaser trailer.

Having also read through KotS, I can see things that would not have been *my* first choices to change about D&D - I don't know if I'm a fan of the new skill system that seems to remove specialized skill-based characters, for instance - but I also know that the stuff presented in KotS is *not* a reflection of the completeness of 4e. Abbreviated rules mean abbreviated content.

The quickstart rules in the adventure are not comprehensive, although I feel they do their job for the purpose. All pre-made adventures, especially those with pregenerated noncustomizable characters, lie midway between "role-playing game" and "board game" - without a full rules set, you're not getting the full experience.

To the OP - I can understand that the preview adventure might not be all that impressive. Pre-packaged adventures never are - by definition they're not going to be as good as a home-brewed campaign with reactive plotting, customizable characters, cooperative storytelling, etc. The quickstart rules leave a lot of questions unanswered, but I have faith that the end result will be worth waiting for.

 

[neoweasel]

Having played 4e, I agree that the rules don't feel like 3.5. They do feel like "D&D" to me, though, and that's what I'm looking for. I absolutely love the new stat blocks; as a DM, they make me very, very happy.

In our first game, we had a mix of experienced players and people who aren't too experienced with D&D rules. Both groups adapted quickly. That bodes well to me.

But luckily, you've found a system that works for you. I think you'll be able to find 3.5 players for quite some time. I think that's a great thing.

I played 4E (well, the version available through H1) for the first time this week and I have to agree that it felt like D&D. Was the session deep, immersive roleplay? Not really. Did I have a lot of fun pretending to be a half-elven holy warrior zorching the snot out of a bunch of kobolds with the might of my god? Oh, yeah.

Interesting tactical choices and quick resolution are godsends. There was a bit of a learning curve in which Second Wind was only used once in two encounters, but that's just bad 3E habits that will go away as we get more experienced with the system.

 

[Baka no Hentai]

One thing to keep in mind is that KOTS is simply a preview adventure... Im sure that they had extremely limited space to throw rules in, so it makes sense to me that those rules would not seem very intuitive. After all, they are attempting to pack 300 pages worth of rules (600 if you count the DMG) into the limited page count available for the adventure.

This is why I am purposefully not buying KOTS until after I get the core books.


In regards to the stat block and fluff problem, that sounds more like a page layout issue than a 4E rule issue... unless im misunderstanding you?

Regardless, I'm not trying to change your mind... just saying that your original idea of getting the PHB is pretty sound, and in your shoes I would likely stick with that plan.

 

[Wolfspider]

Possibly because his quote says "opinions on 4e" and he hasn't seen "4e" yet, only the preview adventure. That's like judging a movie from a teaser trailer.

I would compare it more with judging a movie based on the first 20 minutes of it.

The "teaser trailer" would have been, in this case, the "Wizards Presents" books that previewed 4th edition.

 

[Transit]

...but I have faith that the end result will be worth waiting for.

But how can you have that opinion? You haven't seen "4e" yet, only the preview adventure. That's like judging a movie from a teaser trailer.

 

[mhensley]

I played last night and my grognard take is: 4e is weak sauce. I played the dwarf fighter and felt less heroic than earlier editions, not more. Yeah, I got a lot more hit points but when even kobolds have more than 20 hp what does it really matter? All that did was make me slowly nick opponents to death. Whee!

And what about all my kewl powerz? Wow, I can cleave and do a piddly 3 points of damage to somebody (instead of in 3e where I could possibly kill two guys in one attack). Whee! Or I could instead attack and do a piddly 3 points of damage if I miss. I guess it's pointless if I actually hit my target. Whee! Or I could attack and trip my target which imposes an incredible -2 penalty to them.. up until they just stand back up on their turn. I guess I could trip Orcus himself with this as there's no save and it's not opposed in any way. Whee! And best of all is my mighty DAILY POWER where I can attack for an average damage of 24 points... I might be able to kill an unhurt kolbold in one shot... maybe... once a day. Whee!

Wow, oh wow. All these options I never had before with a fighter. Cleave, trip, power attack. It blows my mind. Whee! Are we having fun yet?

 

[vagabundo]

Couldn't resist getting Shadowfell from Amazon (the 3 maps alone are worth the $20). Though I never plan to run 4e, I was secretly hoping it would be cool. Having glanced through it last night, my initial take on 4e is -

It is cool, for the DM and players. I've been DMing 4e(lite) for the past two months now and my players love it.

Wow, it's much worse than I could ever believe and extremely unappealing to a 3.5e grognard. I was open-minded, truly, and still need to read it more carefully, but if you're in the "I'm going to play 3.5e forever" camp, the real thing is not going to change your mind. It's just what we've been predicting and more.

Rather than just read the adventure, you really need to actually play it. The rules work much better than 3e in actual play, they are a bit dry if you just read them.

A couple of key issues:

1. The Rules: The rules don't feel like 3e at all, and frankly don't seem any more "streamlined" on first glance. This is essentially a new game system. It's not unlike the feeling I got when I picked up Dark Heresy or Solomon Kane - my eyes just kind of glazed over the rules, and I'm pretty adept at all three previous editions. And the replacement/redefined rules seem clunky. Is it really easier to categorize monsters by type and by minion/lurker/fodder/whatever?

Again, in play they are more streamlined, and each player gets some time to do heroic stuff. They feel very similar to 3e to me, but opinions and play-styles may vary.

Monsters are much easier and loads of fun to run as a DM. What you do with the monster changes depending on the role.

2. The Adventure: I don't like the look and feel of the adventure itself, from the new stat blocks to the mashing together of fluff, tactical encounters, and monster stats in the same page. It's not visually pleasing nor intuitive. Furthermore, nothing here makes me terrified to enter the Shadowfell.

I havent DMed the adventure yet, but I hate page flipping, having it all layed out in a two page spread is a Godsend in my opinion.

I've got to say it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I preordered the PHB, despite my vow not to ever run 4e, because I was still curious to see what had changed and what exciting ideas I could port into 3.5e. After seeing Shadowfell, I'm probably going to cancel it.

I'm sure there is still some cool stuff for you to insert into your 3e game, 4e is fairly modular. The adventure has very slimmed down version of the rules, if you are looking to see what you can yoink I wouldnt judge 4e on "keep on the shadowfell". It is more a preview of the system as a whole.

 

[Festivus]

After reading "Keep" last night I fell on the opposite side of the fence. I really like what I am seeing, and look forward to less complexity, smoother DMing with less referencing material in books, and the roles each creature can play.

Yes it's a very different game than 3.5, but so was 3.x from AD&D. I missed entirely 2nd edition, and came late to 3.5. To me it was jarring to play 3.5 at first, the vast array of options, the complexity of the rules compared to "winging it" in AD&D, where the GM was master of the rules, not the rulebooks.

When I took a look at the Pathfinder RPG and compared it to what I am seeing with 4E so far, I can tell you that I choose to go the less complex route without even thinking much more about it.

A totally different game that still feels like D&D... I am all over it.

 

[Wolfspider]

But how can you have that opinion? You haven't seen "4e" yet, only the preview adventure. That's like judging a movie from a teaser trailer.

"A hit, a very palpable hit."