Group Dynamics: Min/Max vs RPers

[Empirate]

Ray of Enfeeblement

Necromancy

Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1.

No mention of interaction with other ability penalties, but this sounds pretty absolute.

 

[Dandu]

I've heard differing opinions on the subject.

 

[Empirate]

Uh. I always played ability penalties the way I said earlier, because quite a few effects that deal them have the clause I quoted from the RoE spell desc. I might have to reconsider that, and that would hurt majorly, what with my beautiful pet project here: Ability Damage Resource by Empirate

I can't really find a straightup statement on how ability penalties work. Except they are different from ability damage, and go away immediately once the effect that caused them ends. Hmm. Ouch.

 

[Dandu]

Most spells that inflict a penalty do have that clause, but the Exhausted condition does not, which is why I think it works. Perhaps the FAQ clarifies this?

 

[kitcik]

Based on his sig, Dandu should know this...

 

[Dandu]

Update: A quick look through the FAQ indicates that it is not in fact addressed.

I choose to believe you can paralyze someone and then have the party ranger CDG him with a x3 Greataxe.

 

[Phoenix1985]

Hm, I seem to have forgotten the exact text of the Swift Hunter feat. Thanks for pointing that out.

Premade adventure modules suffer a few weaknesses. They obviously cannot be tailored for a specific party's capabilities, but, somewhat less obviously, were written by English majors and intended to by used by the lowest common denominator, ie, people who thought a Dual Wielding Finesse Fighter with Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Two Weapon Defense was a good idea.

As an English graduate... ouch.

 

[Dandu]

No offense, but an English major is no substitute for a Math major when it comes to statistical mechanics.

 

[Phoenix1985]

True, heh - apologies, I realised that's what you meant about two minutes after posting. I've heard 'English grad' bandied about as an insult rather a lot since graduating and kind of auto-read it that way

*Not that there isn't good cause to insult the damn thing mind

 

[airwalkrr]

Thanks for the advice guys. I generally only run published adventures as I have a full-time job, a wife and 2.5 kids, so I am at the mercy of whatever beasties are in the module. I think I will just need to make some time each week to alter the enemies a bit in an effort to challenge the group more and make them face their weaknesses.

There is a good section in the DMG (page 48, short section, so I suggest reading it) about tailored encounters versus status quo encounters. I can appreciate that you have a lot of stuff to do that doesn't leave time for coming up with adventures, but you can use the pre-published adventures as a skeleton then adapt things with your players in mind. Running pre-published adventures means you are running 100% "status quo" which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But with heavy optimizers in the group, these adventures aren't often going to be very challenging. But having some status quo encounters is never a bad thing. So I suggest mixing things up about 50/50. Keep roughly half the encounters the way they are written; I specifically suggest keeping the thug-type encounters or those that are simply designed to use up player resources rather than challenge them a lot. Then adapt some of the more challenging ones.

For starters, give some of your monsters blur and give the tougher ones displacement. There are plenty of other similar spells that significantly damper your min/maxers' abilities by negating precision-based damage or just making it harder to hit than simply making an attack roll. You don't need to explain it for any reason because your players won't know how they obtained it. Perhaps a potion, maybe an innate spell-like ability from a template you created yourself. You could even weave in a class of templated monsters that have arisen that just so happen to be a particular damper on the min/maxers' abilities. Overcoming these monsters and the challenges they pose will probably actually be a fun way to test the mettle of the min/maxed characters.

But don't overdo it. Like I said, make it about 50/50. Leave plenty of encounters for the min/maxers to feel like their investment in the mastering certain elements of the game has paid off.

As a number of others have said, variety is the spice of life. Even if you are running published adventures, you don't have to run them exactly as written. Make changes on the fly just to challenge your players. It doesn't require a whole lot of forethought, although I suppose being able to make adjustments on the fly is a skill that comes with practice. I do it naturally having run 3.5 to the hilt by now, but if you are newer to DMing it will take some time. So if that is the case, make some ad-hoc adjustments from time to time and leave your players hanging as to why. Just because they have Knowledge checks doesn't mean they know everything, and they don't have to know your DM secrets at any rate.

Good luck!

Edit: And one final word of advice although it has already been mentioned. Just because it exists in the rules doesn't mean the players have a right to it. Things like the kaorti-resin might exist in the game world, but you are free to decide what exists in the hands of your players. I am of the old-school variety DMs who finds ways to take away problem items from the group, usually surreptitiously, but sometimes blatantly. A disintegrate spell targeted at the spiked chain by an optimized sorcerer of your own creation who then cackles as he teleports away (perhaps to harry the party again later) is fair game in my DM's box of tricks. Then when the character goes looking for another kaorti-resin spiked chain, he discovers it has suddenly gotten surprisingly rare. In fact, I vastly prefer to keep the available items for purchase in my campaigns extremely limited. Expensive stuff can't just be bought. It is earned as treasure found in monster hoards (treasure which I have picked and approved of) or exchanged for quests of a challenging nature.