[GUIDE] Born to be Wild, a sorcerer guide.

mellored

Explorer
Cool. Gut reaction is that you underrate crown of stars, but I haven't closely considered the math and mechanics of it yet.
Disintigrate (6th level + quicken)
75 damage

Crown of stars (7th level)
26 per turn = 78 in a 3 round battle

Spiritual Weapon (7th level)
32 per turn = 96 in a 3 round battle

Quicken + Firebolt + fire dragon sorc (convert a 7th level slot for SP).
21.5 per turn = 64.5 in 3 round (+ 1 SP left over).

Sunbeam (6th level, AoE, concentration, action, half on miss)
27 per turn = 81 in 3 rounds.

All (except sunbeam) do nothing on a miss, so accuracy not included.

So unless you get multiple battles worth, something I find dubious even with an hour, I don't see it as all to great.

Are you going to look at the racial feats as well? Elven accuracy seems like an obvious winner, especially for wild magic.
Most spells don't use advantage. And there's really no other feat that makes/breaks anything. Unless you have an odd score.

But fair point about wild. And shadow as well. So I'll add that one.
 
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Disintigrate (6th level + quicken)
75 damage

Crown of stars (7th level)
26 per turn = 78 in a 3 round battle

Spiritual Weapon (7th level)
32 per turn = 96 in a 3 round battle

Firebolt + fire dragon sorc (convert a 7th level slot for 3 rounds of quicken + 1 SP).
21.5 per turn = 64.5 in 3 round

Sunbeam (6th level, AoE, concentration, action, half on miss)
27 per turn = 81 in 3 rounds.

All (except sunbeam) do nothing on a miss, so accuracy not included.

So unless you get multiple battles worth, something I find dubious even with an hour, I don't see it as all to great.

Your rationale for making Melf's minute meteors blue was that it does 50% more damage than fireball at 3rd level. Well, crown of stars does 370% more damage than fire storm at 7th level, 569% more than sunburst at 8th, and 104% more than meteor swarm at 9th. Unlike Melf's, it doesn't require concentration, and it lasts six times as long.

The net effect of crown of stars is to give you 7/9/11 quickened spells within the next hour, at the cost of 7/8/9 sorcery points instead of 14/18/22, while upgrading your fire bolt from 3/4d10 fire damage to 4d12 radiant. Accuracy should be a consideration, since not all save types (and AC) are equal, attacks can crit, and advantage on attacks is more common and cheaper than disadvantage on enemy saves. So:

Sunbeam: Con save, concentration, can't be scaled up, risk of friendly fire, and you're quickening anyway if you want to cast other spells.
Fire bolt + dragon bonus: I agree, crown of stars is better than fire bolts while quickening other spells, even for fire dragons. That makes it a whole lot better for the other 4.8 sorcerer subclasses.
Spiritual weapon: Double check the scaling. A 7th-level spiritual weapon does 3d8 + spellcasting mod. 18.5 * 3 = 55.5 damage. It's also not available to most sorcerers.
Quickened disintegrate: All right, and what are you doing with your action? Fire bolt? Twinned fire bolt? Well, if you had used your bonus action for crown of stars, you could cast a twinned disintegrate with your action. That's 176 damage with crown of stars, 108 without.

Beyond all that, at bottom I disagree with the calculation that you need to use it more than three times to get value. Crown of stars allows you to front-load damage and to use other spells with metamagic when you would otherwise be quickening them. It improves both damage per round and flow.

I also disagree about seeing more than one combat in an hour. In my experience, it is very common to fight, for example, undead minions in the first room, henchlings in the second, a stronger undead in the third, overseers in the fourth, and the boss in the fifth.

Most spells don't use advantage. And there's really no other feat that makes/breaks anything. Unless you have an odd score.

But fair point about wild. And shadow as well. So I'll add that one.

Greater invisibility + scorching ray should be in every sorcerer's playbook. Heck, dip two levels of hexblade warlock, cast eldritch blast and quickened scorching ray from invisibility with elven accuracy, and enjoy a 27.1% chance to crit on each attack.

Is crown of stars twinable?

Nope, but neither are any of the spells you just compared it to.
 
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mellored

Explorer
Your rationale for making Melf's minute meteors blue was that it does 50% more damage than fireball at 3rd level.
Fair. Though melfs is an AoE that can often hit 2 people and does half-on-a-miss.
Crown of starts is single target with nothing if you miss.
So your %'s aren't a fair comparison.

Still, I'll bump it to blue.

Greater invisibility + scorching ray should be in every sorcerer's playbook
Sorcerer's are not usually the best target for greater invisibility.

Eldrich blast deals 31.5 per round. (*3 rounds for a quicken = with a 7th level slot). So if your dipping hexblade, crown of stars loses to that.
And multiclassing means you're behind on wish. So it'a a heafty trade off.

Spiritual weapon: Double check the scaling.
Wow... I've been playing that one wrong for a while...

Nope, but neither are any of the spells you just compared it to.
Firebolt is.
But that's less direct than quicken.
 

Sorcerers are not usually the best target for greater invisibility.

I would be curious to know why you say this. I consider greater invisibility + scorching ray our best single-target option outside of disintegrate.

Eldrich blast deals 31.5 per round. (*3 rounds for a quicken = with a 7th level slot). So if you're dipping hexblade, crown of stars loses to that.

True, one of the most notoriously powerful multiclass combos beats out crown of stars. A single-classed sorcerer, of course, would not have eldritch blast, and a single-classed warlock would not have quickened spell, so it remains a good spell for either of them individually. As you point out, multiclassing has its drawbacks as well.

The point I was making was about elven accuracy and its application in crit fishing. Even without the larger crit range of the hexblade, the feat raises your crit chance to greater than 14.25% on advantaged attacks.
 

mellored

Explorer
I would be curious to know why you say this. I consider greater invisibility + scorching ray our best single-target option outside of disintegrate.
Sharpshooter.
1d8+15 * 2 attacks = 39 * .5 = 19.5
+ greater invisbility = 39 * .75 = 29.25
GI adds +9.75 damage.

Scorcing ray
2d6 * 3 attacks * = 21 * .65 = 13.65
+ greater invisibility = 21 * .8775 =18.4275
GI adds +4.7775

So you get double the damage, and get to keep your level 2 if you cast it on an archer instead of yourself. And that doesn't include action surge, hunter's mark, or whatever.

Just for completness

Eldrich Blast
1d10+5*2 = 21
...so same as scorching ray, but without expending spell slots.
(Though warlocks probably have their own advantage).


So yea, I don't see the sorcerer as the prime target to put the GI on. Unless you're alone. In which case, i would be using subtle and not reveal your location with scorching ray, so not even then.

The point I was making was about elven accuracy and its application in crit fishing. Even without the larger crit range of the hexblade, the feat raises your crit chance to greater than 14.25% on advantaged attacks.
That's total. You would have 9.75% chance with just advantage. So the feat only adds 4.5% chance to crit, to a single spell or 2, if you also are using another spell for advantage.
* 4d12 = +1.17 crit damage.

Or to be complete.
4d12 * .65 = 16.9
4d12 * .8775 = 22.815
4d12 * .957125= 24.88525 (+ 1.17 crit)
GI adds +5.915 damage.
EA adds +3.24025 damage
= +9.15525 total.

Still better off using GI on the fighter. But does beat a warlock.

As for the other cost...
Half-elf,
8 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, 15+2 Cha + elven archery (18 Cha)
vs
8 str, 16 dex, 16 con, 8 int, 10 Wis, 14+2 Cha + 2 Cha (18 cha)

So your trading out +1 Wis for elven accuracy. Not bad on that front.
 
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gyor

Legend
The value of Metamagics and spells vary greaterly between subclasses. Heighten Spell is awesome for many builds, blue at least, but it red for Shadow Sorcerers, because Hound of Ill Omen does what but does 10 times better, for the same price.

Extend Spell is much better for Divine Souls then other Sorcerers because they have far more spells with durations like 10 minutes, an hour, even some like Aid and Guardian of Faith last for 8 hours without concentration. Btw the healing that Aid grants, which you can cast before battle, is gravy, its real value is in boosting the maxium HPs of 3 characters for 8 hours (16 with extend spell), which is great especially for front line squishy characters like Rogues and Monks and Ranger Beast Companions.

Distant Spell is also better for Divine Souls then other because cleric spells are more likely to be touch range like revify, cure wounds, lesser restoration, and so on.

Temple of the Gods is also worth getting if your a Divine Soul. Its a safer fortress then Mighty Fortress, a meterite spell can hit it and it won't be damaged, it can be far more flexible in size, healing boosted within, ect... It perfect for resting and healing safely and there are other creative uses for it.
 

Sharpshooter.
1d8+15 * 2 attacks = 39 * .5 = 19.5
+ greater invisbility = 39 * .75 = 29.25
GI adds +9.75 damage.

Scorcing ray
2d6 * 3 attacks * = 21 * .65 = 13.65
+ greater invisibility = 21 * .8775 =18.4275
GI adds +4.7775

So you get double the damage, and get to keep your level 2 if you cast it on an archer instead of yourself. And that doesn't include action surge, hunter's mark, or whatever.

I think you are mostly right in this specific example, though you are glossing over some finer points--the sorcerer could actually nova for more damage by casting scorching ray out of a 4th- or 5th-level slot, and more yet by quickening and throwing out a fire bolt. Though the sorcerer would be more likely to lose concentration if not invisible, the sharpshooter would have the higher sustained damage.

However, I don't think that sharpshooter by itself suffices to prove that sorcerers are not usually the best target for greater invisibility. I do not believe that every party has a character built to maximize one of the most-banned and -houseruled feats in the game. Or two such characters, if the sorcerer can twin greater invis. In fact, I have never seen a character with sharpshooter or GWM in actual play; I only see those feats talked about a lot on these forums. If I can find the time, I might do some math on more-common builds to see how they compare.

And, of course, if the sorcerer has elven accuracy . . .
Scorching ray - 0 damage on a miss/7 on a hit/14 on a crit
35/60/5 base = 4.9 damage per ray
12.25/78/9.75 with advantage = 6.825 damage per ray
4.29/81.45/14.26 with elven accuracy = 7.70 damage per ray

That sorcerer can out-damage the sharpshooter with a 3rd-level scorching ray. A 6th-level scorching ray will average 7.7 * 7 = 53.9 damage. A 6th-level disintegrate averages 75 * 0.65 = 48.75, so I think the crit-fishing approach has some merit.

Moving back to the absurdly theorycrafty realm of the hexblade multiclass for the fun of it, let's throw on the hexblade curse.

0 damage on a miss/10 on a hit/17 on a crit (assuming a +3 proficiency bonus)
4.29/68.61/27.1 = 11.47 damage per ray

That one outdoes the sharpshooter with a 2nd-level scorching ray.

The 6th-level scorching ray would then average 80.28 damage. Not bad. Tack on another 30-ish points if someone else casts greater invisibility on you so you can concentrate on the hex spell. Add on fire-dragon bonus if you like. Come to think of it, even without advantage and elven accuracy, the hexblade's scorching ray would deal 7.2 damage, so just over 50 at 6th level. I'm starting to think that a dip into hexblade is a little too good.
 
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Zmajdusa

First Post
Consider that with hexblade you can grab improved pact weapon, thirsting blade, and eldritch smite all by 5th level as a hexblade. You would get 2 attacks and could then quicken an eldritch blast, and all 4 attacks that round would crit on a 19 or 20.
 

ppaladin123

Adventurer
So is a 1 level dip in hexblade just the default for sorcerers now (especially non-Dragon)? Seems like the armor/shields alone are enough to justify it.
 

vonkraush

First Post
Very interested in getting a divine soul sorcerer build online, but the sheer number of available spells and limited spells known is making it very difficult for me to figure out exactly what to choose. Does anyone have a set of 'optimal' recommendations at each level? That would be very helpful to consult.
 

ScuroNotte

Explorer
Very interested in getting a divine soul sorcerer build online, but the sheer number of available spells and limited spells known is making it very difficult for me to figure out exactly what to choose. Does anyone have a set of 'optimal' recommendations at each level? That would be very helpful to consult.

Homebrew and increase the number of spells. That is the only way we play the sorcerer.

Otherwise, depends on your party make up. Are you the healer, support, blaster, etc.
 

mellored

Explorer
So is a 1 level dip in hexblade just the default for sorcerers now (especially non-Dragon)? Seems like the armor/shields alone are enough to justify it.
No. If you have a good front line, it's better to stick with the extra spell slots and spell level.

If you don't have a good front line, it competes with cleric. Would you rather have a single level 5 slot, or 3 level 1 slots? Wis is a good start to have anyways, so it's not much of a factor.
 

vonkraush

First Post
I believe I'm going for mostly blaster? I was hoping I could also pair that with at least some support and beyond just haste though.
 


ScuroNotte

Explorer
I believe I'm going for mostly blaster? I was hoping I could also pair that with at least some support and beyond just haste though.

If you are using the 15 spells known, I would say select 2 damage spells that target single targets and 2 damage spells that target groups. Try to select different saving throw types and different damage types for each. For groups, you can use Fireball (old standby) that targets Dex and fire damage. Then select Synaptic Static later on for Int saving throw with psychic damage.

Single Target you can select spiritual Weapon as no concentration and a free bonus action to attack. Saves you sorcery points instead of spending on Quicken. Firebolt or Sacred Flame or Ray of Frost and then Spiritual Weapon every round against a single target.

Also can select Silence spell and Subtle Metamagic. Use against casters. They cant cast but you can.
Distant Metamagic and Cure Wounds. No need for touch.
 
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Ogre Mage

Adventurer
Very interested in getting a divine soul sorcerer build online, but the sheer number of available spells and limited spells known is making it very difficult for me to figure out exactly what to choose. Does anyone have a set of 'optimal' recommendations at each level? That would be very helpful to consult.

If you are planning your PC as a support caster/healer, I would recommend taking a 1 level dip into Life Cleric. It will give you several more known spells, especially as Life Clerics automatically know bless and cure wounds. Not to mention armor and a bonus to your healing spells.

That aside, some of my generic top choices per level are:

1st level: Bless, Guiding Bolt, Healing Word, Magic Missile, Sleep, Shield, Absorb Elements.
2nd level: Spiritual Weapon, Invisibility, Flaming Sphere, Misty Step, Suggestion.
3rd level: Spirit Guardians, Revivify, Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Haste, Counterspell.
4th level: Death Ward, Banishment, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph.
5th level: Mass Cure Wounds, Hold Monster, Wall of Force. Possibly True Seeing depending on the campaign.
6th level: Heal, Mass Suggestion, Chain Lightning. Possibly Planar Ally but that one is quite GM dependent.

Not familiar enough with higher level spells to comment. Although Wish is a no-brainer.
 
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gyor

Legend
Very interested in getting a divine soul sorcerer build online, but the sheer number of available spells and limited spells known is making it very difficult for me to figure out exactly what to choose. Does anyone have a set of 'optimal' recommendations at each level? That would be very helpful to consult.

Figure out what kind of Spells you want to focus on and how deeply you want to focus on them.

Example say I want a Divine Soul who focuses on Conjuration Spells and Healing, with a couple of useful spells to fill in gaps.

So for Conjuration I take Guardian Spirits, Spiritual Weapon, Guardian of Faith, Planar Ally, Temple of the Gods, Conjure Celestial, and Wish. And the Extend Spell Metamagic.

Then for healing I get Cure Wounds 4 free, get Lessèr Restoration, Revify, Mass Cure Wounds, then trade regular cure wounds for Aid (when you want a proper cure wounds spell you cast Mass Cure Wounds).

This allows you to specialize in 2 different areas while retaining some variety.



That leaves 5 spells to fill in any holes for some rounding. Dominate Monster, Major Illusion (use 6th level slot to make it permanent), Chromatic Orb (can be twinned, deals good single target damage, flexible in that you have many choices in damage types), Mage Armour for safety, and Polymorph for a spell that can buff/debuff as needed.

Before Wish becomes available you can cure the blind, the deaf, the diseased, the poisoned, the dead, heal wounds, throw a balls of Thunder Damage, Force Damage, Fire Damage, Cold Damage, Lightening Damage, Acid Damage, Poison Damage, create both temperary and permenant illusions, Dominate almost anything, turn yourself and others into animals of your choice, buff, debuff, cast damage dealing spells, Conjure Couatls, Summon Planar Allies (Elemental/Celestial/Fiend) that serve any cosmic entity and buy their service, summon countless fey or celestial spirits to fight for him, summon a Guardian of Faith, and a Spiritual Weapon, buff and debuff.
 

Arthil

First Post
Hello!

So I've got an interesting setup right now and am still wondering on where to take it. The Wild Sticky Bomb from the OP seemed interesting, but all of that is based around being a Variant Human(like too many builds).

Thanks to my DM rolling up an odd but interesting combo of stats, I decided to make a Goliath Sorcerer. My stat layout is below:

15 STR 12 DEX 12 CON 10 INT 15 WIS 15 CHA

The Wild Sticky Bomb build appealed to me cause with my high strength I can be in the fray once I got some armor, actually make use of shove actions with my strength score and a natural proficiency with athletics. But I'm sure I'm gonna need to go a different route, what with an uneven CHA etc. I'm also not sure how I am meant to end up with 24 AC by Level 11.

I know for my CHA, I'd need to go +2, +2 and then a +1 with a dip of one into something else to get it maxed out. Which is where my feats would end cause dipping 1 into Hexblade deprives you of one of your AIS's.
 

mellored

Explorer
Hello!

So I've got an interesting setup right now and am still wondering on where to take it. The Wild Sticky Bomb from the OP seemed interesting, but all of that is based around being a Variant Human(like too many builds).

Thanks to my DM rolling up an odd but interesting combo of stats, I decided to make a Goliath Sorcerer. My stat layout is below:

15 STR 12 DEX 12 CON 10 INT 15 WIS 15 CHA
Since you have the Str, no need to go hexblade. I would dip fighter for heavy armor and defensive style, or cleric for the spell slots. And then take +1 Str / +1 Cha, +2 Str, +2 Str, and resilient Wis. Possibly inspiring leader.

You will end up with 26 AC. 18 heavy armor, +1 defensive style, +2 shield, and +5 shield spell.

+3 Cha will still be enough to cast the occasional fireball, which does half on a miss anyways. And spells like greater invisibility and haste don't require Cha.
 

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