D&D 5E [GUIDE] NADRIGOL's Melee Bladesinger Guide

[Rofel Wodring]

If your scenario allows you to proc or use the Bonus Action to do an off-hand attack, then it should also allow you to use the Extra Attack as well. It does not because of the verbiage of the Haste Attack Action that states (one weapon attack only). That verbiage is there for a reason to limit the attacks you get from using the Action you get from Haste.

If that's your logic, you're also saying that the sequence of, say, Haste Extra Attack --> Movement --> Regular Action Attack or SCAG Cantrip is impossible.

 

[Rofel Wodring]

It's specific to a subgroup of enemies, which you need to be able to accurately identify in game. And the concentration is a huge downside. It needs to rank higher, more often, than other concentration spells. And ten minutes isn't particularly valuable in a concentration spell for a melee front-liner.

Counter-counterpoint: it covers a huge chunk of the more dangerous enemies. Not having protection against humanoids, giants, and dragons does hurt -- but not having protection against constructs and animals is not a big deal. And except for dragons, having another Disadvantage-On-Demand effect (such as Blur or Greater Invis) will cover you. The other thing is that blindsight and truesight and other such senses completely foils the standard 'disadvantage on demand' spells: Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, and Blur. The only relatively cheap way to force disadvantage for a long time against a large group of enemies is Protection From Evil.

I also think you're undercounting the value of a 10-minute concentration spell. I've played in plenty of scenarios both in 5E and other D&D games where you anticipate combat, buff up and charge in, but the trouble doesn't arrive immediately because you misjudged the shape of the room / need to investigate something / have talky-time first / etc. These things taking a minute of delay will kill most debuffs, but 10 minutes makes it a lot more likely to have your buff going in.

And if you completely misjudge the timing, so what? It's a 1st-level spell. It costs 25 gp a pop, but Bladesingers are really vulnerable to getting ganked in the first round of combat, even with shield. If you have a better Disadvantage-On-Demand effect to cast, then just drop concentration and cast it. You're out a 1st-level spell slot, which stings since they compete with your Shield and Silent Image slots, but better than going into combat with only a 16/17 AC.

All that would be good enough, but you also get Charm and Frightened protection to boot.

Protection From Evil:
Pros: First-level. Lasts 10 minutes, making it easier to head into combat with it. Provides Charm and Frightened Protection.
Cons: Concentration. Does not protect against Humanoids, Animals, Constructs, and Dragons -- and the first two are very common enemies at low level. Costs 25 gp a pop, making it prohibitively expensive at low levels.

Blur:
Pros: 2nd-level. Gives blanket disadvantage against everything that doesn't have special vision.
Cons: Concentration. Completely foiled by special vision or effects like Faerie Fire.

Mirror Image:
Pros: 2nd-level. Does not require concentration. Provides perfect defense against AC attacks
Cons: Enemy still has a base chance to hit you. Mirror Image AC is a lot lower than your AC, so you will lose images when you otherwise wouldn't. Limited protection, which means that it's hard to stand up against hordes just with this spell.

Blink:
Pros: Makes you completely untargetable by not being there. Non-concentration.
Cons: The blinking effect is random. You also lose the chance to provide melee interdiction while you're gone.

Greater Invisibility:
Pros: Makes you untargetable by spells. Makes it so that an enemy has to outright guess where your square is. Gives advantage. Gives a huge bonus to stealthing.
Cons: Concentration. Higher-level slot. Completely foiled by special vision or effects like Faerie Fire.

HONORABLE MENTION:
Haste, its extra action used to hide in combat.
Pros: Good use of your concentration slot, since Haste has a lot of side benefits. Hiding gives great defense as long as you're not noticed.
Cons: Being able to hide is really hard to do in a lot of circumstances. Having some way to drop out of enemy's sight (Cunning Action, Bonus Action Teleport, magic items, being a Lightfoot Halfling, etc.) is mandatory. Will auto-fail in a lot of circumstances.

Using an ASI and your RA for some off-turn damage doesn't seem like enough. Plus if you're carrying a Quarterstaff you have one less sword whether you're single wielding or dual wielding. I'm not seeing the appeal.

Booming Blade is just the Quick and Dirty, No Resources use for the spell. Unless the PHB got errata, you can use Warcaster with any spell IRRC. Use it to set up Melf's Minute Meteors or Blindness for example.

 

[talosilus]

If that's your logic, you're also saying that the sequence of, say, Haste Extra Attack --> Movement --> Regular Action Attack or SCAG Cantrip is impossible.

No it would not be as movement is not limited by attacking. You can absolutely do what you described.

My response was based on my understanding of the Haste Attack Action limitation. However, I have since received clarification through Sage Advice. So based on this clarification, it does support what you and Nadrigol have stated. Since an Attack Action was done on your turn (even if it was done via Haste) it still meets the requirements of Two weapon fighting option (PH, pg 195) and Extra Attack is still limited because of the verbiage of the Haste Attack.

My apologies, as I misunderstood the meaning behind the Haste Attack verbiage in that regard.
Best Regards

 

[Blue]

Except that it doesn't work that way. If it did then the Extra Attack would also trigger from Haste's Attack Action and it does not because of the specific verbiage in the spell that states you get (one weapon attack only).

I think it goes like this:

Action: Cast spell.
Haste Action: Use the Attack action to get a single attack.
Bonus action: Get offhand attack via dual wielding (allowed because the Attack action has been taken).

 

[NADRIGOL]

For the record and readers reference:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/836798221464797184

I will add the link to the guide in case new readers have the same question.

 

[talosilus]

For the record and readers reference:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/836798221464797184

I will add the link to the guide in case new readers have the same question.

Yes that was me .

As I said, I was incorrect in my understanding of the Haste Action limitation verbiage. I have since gotten clarification from Mr. Crawford aka Sage Advice, which you linked above.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using EN World mobile app

 

[Parcae]

Nadrigol, what does a typical combat look like for you? I ask because I'm interested in playing a Bladesinger, but it seems to me that you would spend the first two rounds casting buffs on yourself (Mirror Image and whatever concentration spell you feel like).

 

[cbwjm]

Nadrigol, what does a typical combat look like for you? I ask because I'm interested in playing a Bladesinger, but it seems to me that you would spend the first two rounds casting buffs on yourself (Mirror Image and whatever concentration spell you feel like).

I play a bladesinger and tend to only cast a single buff spell, blur, before combat starts. Very rarely do I cast a buff on myself during combat unless we have been ambushed.

 

[Rofel Wodring]

I've only played a Bladesinger up to level 7, but you generally don't need to start out with combat buffs. Saving a reaction for Shield/Counterspell/Absorb Elements + bladesong will be enough.

In my experience, though, your first round is best spent opening up with a battlefield control spell like Evard's Black Tentacles or Hypnotic Pattern or Web. Combats where I felt compelled to open up with a Protection from Evil or Blur or even Haste are generally ones where I don't expect much difficulty.

 

[Rofel Wodring]

So, I have a Bladesinger up to level 11 now. Couple of things to keep in mind:

I notice that as the game goes on, the base game seems to expect you to play your Bladesinger more and more like a traditional wizard and less as, well, a Bladesinger. This is mostly because even with a very respectable Haste + TWF attack sequence of 4d6 + 16 (single-target damage equal to that of a fireball) it's just not worth wading into melee and risking dropping concentration on a life-saving Wall of Force or Black Tentacles or Phantasmal Force or Polymorph or Hypnotic Pattern.

HOWEVER. I also play in Adventurer's League. And let me tell you, the equation changes greatly once we have magical items and poison in the mix. For example, if you can score a Flametongue Scimitar or Shortsword and some Wyvern Poison, even with completely successful saves that haste sequence would spike up to 4d6 (base) + 16 (4 x Dex) + 6d6 (Flametongue) + 9d6 (Wyvern Poison Saves), for 19d6 + 16, average 82.5 -- which is like hitting one person in the face with three level 3 fireballs in one round.