Gunpowder Works on Middle Earth

[Dark Helmet]

OOOOHHHH!!!! You Dare To Defy The Gamemaster???

In the film.

But what is in the film is not the same as the books, is it? And it's the books that are important in this matter. A film maker could suddenly say 'hey, lets give them all gunpowder weapons'...

And lo and behold, it might still be called Lord of the Rings but it wouldn't be anywhere near the same as the books, in which no suhc thing occurs.

 

[omedon]

Just finished reading it, omedon. You raise some astute points therein, but I think that the answer lies in a somewhat different direction:

As you noted, Middle-earth is indeed our very own earth, but in a mythical past. In any case, the stories told in the Hobbit and in the Lord of the Rings take place before the time of Abraham (circa 2000 B.C.). At this time, no one had gunpowder.

But what about Gandalf? Well, he was one of the Istari, an angel incarnate in a human body. As such, he would certainly have the knowledge required to make gunpowder (Just read Thomas Aquinas's section on angels in his Summa Theologica: Those angels are smart!). I agree with Gary and others here that Gandalf's fireworks were indeed made with gunpowder.

But Gandalf would have no incentive to share his secret of gunpowder with Dwarves, Elves, or Men. As one of the Istari, he had a specific mission: To help guide the Free Peoples of Middle-earth in their struggle against Sauron. He specifically disavowed defeating Sauron with superior strength. In fact, to use gunpowder against Sauron would be to use the deeds and devices of Mordor. (Read Tolkien's volume of letters to see his attitude toward modern weaponry: He regarded it as the spawn of Mordor.)

Instead, the way to destroy Sauron was to do an end-run around him, so to speak.

I find this point of view very interesting. I never really understood Gandalf as be such a holy being though I have often seen references him as being such. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that I read the books when I was age 8 and 9. Although the signifigance of Gandalf the White wasn't entirely lost on me I did not get all of this Istari, and Free peoples of Middle Earth stuff, At least in the sense that is being used here.

This is interesting because if this Istari idea truly comes from Aquinas, someone who's work Tolkien would undoubtably familiar with, then it could be shown that he was an influence on Tolkien. I don't have time to dig out my Aquinas book right now (I don't have all of his works anyways), but if Isatari have knowledge of everything or most things and Gandalf is indeed modeled after them then your conclusion would seem to be correct.

However I still think in most cases it makes sense to stick the simple rule if It is not in the book then it is not in the book and I am not suffiently convinced that this doesn't apply here. If Tolkien really intended all of this gun powder stuff then he would have made it apparent in his text. When authors have messages they want to get across in their stories they don't try to hide them.

In any case I think it is an interesting topic, and believe it needs to be looked at closer. Could someone please post relevant quotes from the books regarding gunpowder so I may see why everyone is so convinced that this is the case. My books are 500 miles away.

Also if someone could point me towards any essays regarding Tolkien and Aquinas or religious aspects in the books in general I would appreciate it.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Regarding Gandalf and the other wizards as angelic beings, check out Unfinished Tales (a number of which are not unfinished, but are rather detailed notes on various aspects of his books written by Tolkien himself), specifically the section on the Istari.

There are brief mentions of the Istari, and Gandalf, in the Silmarillion also, which reveal his background. The appendices to LotR also have some brief mentions that shed a bit of light also.

Basically, the Istari are Maiar, which are powerful spirits that were created by and serve Eru, the one, the "God" of Middle Earth. The Maiar (led by the more powerful Valar, of which there were 14 - there were apparently countless Maiar) were responsible for the creation of the world. As you can see, this is basically something like Christian ideas of angels and their hierarchy. The Istari numbered 5, and were Maiar cloaked in the flesh of men and sent to help them rid Middle Earh of Sauron. Gandalf was a one of the five Istari - he was the wisest, but not the most powerful; Saruman was the most powerful. The only other of the Istari (interchangebly called wizards) mentioned by name in LotR is Radagast the Brown (called by Saruman, contemptuously, the Bird-Tamer, the Simple, the Fool).