Remathilis
Legend
Rereads...
Huh. I thought only the off- hand weapon had to be light. So no rapier + dagger in basic.
I wager there's a feat for that.
D&D 5E GWF vs TWF: The Math
- Thread starter Stalker0
- Start date
Huh. I thought only the off- hand weapon had to be light. So no rapier + dagger in basic.
I wager there's a feat for that.
Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
Scimitars are light, so Drizzt is still legal. Though he does less damage now, since the scimitar has been demoted to a 1d6 weapon.
Abstruse
Legend
My guess is they'll get a fighting style like bonus at 3rd, similar to Fighters. TWF version will probably be that only the off-hand weapon must be light. But that's just a complete guess on my part.
That is a very good point actually, and I'm glad for it. Before, rogues would always go TWF as an optimal path. Now there is a trade off there, so I'm guessing you will see a rogue mix between the styles which is perfect imo.
I think you win that bet; there's been one throughout the play test.
Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
Agree that it's a good design decision to open up more rogue alternatives. I just wish they'd defined sneak attack to work with all rogue weapons -- it would encourage more thuggish rogues to go the longsword route. As it stands, it would be foolish for a rogue to use a longsword, since you can't sneak attack with it, nor can you dual wield a second weapon that allows sneak attack.
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
I was just thinking about how you could play this...mixing it up...a hide, a disengage, an off-hand attack, in the same fight.
the Jester
Legend
I wouldn't be surprised to see a thuggish rogue subclass in the PH who can.
I would have liked to see more flexibility generally in Rogue design.
For example, if the sneak attack rules referred to ranged attacks (rather than ranged weapons), then a high elf rogue could have used a cantrip. That could have allowed an entirely Int-based rogue. As it is, Dex and Str rogues are the only ones supported, and some people are even doubting whether the Str build is able to use sneak attack (with a finesse weapon). [there will be a charisma/dex build in the PHB at least; beyond that, though I don't know.]
For example, if the sneak attack rules referred to ranged attacks (rather than ranged weapons), then a high elf rogue could have used a cantrip. That could have allowed an entirely Int-based rogue. As it is, Dex and Str rogues are the only ones supported, and some people are even doubting whether the Str build is able to use sneak attack (with a finesse weapon). [there will be a charisma/dex build in the PHB at least; beyond that, though I don't know.]
One thing to factor in. The rogue will not always get to use sneak attack, and 5e makes switching weapons decently easy. Further, with no assumption of magic weapons, a rogue could pull out a longsword for a straight up fight, and then switch to do short swords for a quick sneak attack...and both would be reasonable choices.
sidonunspa
First Post
Sounds like a feat to me
IronWolf
blank
Or a DM cool with house rules. (i.e. I won't be using feats, but if a player has a cool reason for why his character can do something - we're off to the races).
GrumpyGamer
First Post
I was fiddling around and wrote a monte carlo sim for all 4 fighter fighting styles in Python.
It takes the arguments:
nrolls - number of times to run the sim. For example 100000 would be the same as sitting down and recording the results of a 100000 attack rounds.
apr - this is the number of attacks the fighter has in a round (for twf it adds in the extra attack)
cn - critical hit number. For the starter set martial archetype this is 20 at 1st level, 19 at 3rd level, 18, at 15th level.
pn - proficiency bonus
an - ability bonus
ac - target AC you are attacking
ndice - number of dice your weapon has
dicetype - dice type your weapon uses
It returns:
h - number of hits
t - total damage
a - average damage per round
Output 1st level:
>>> dicesim_duel(100000,1,20,2,3,14,1,8)
(59802, 590842, 5.90842)
>>> dicesim_arch(100000,1,20,2,3,14,1,10)
(69995, 622456, 6.22456)
>>> dicesim_twf(100000,1,20,2,3,14,1,6)
(119667, 813139, 8.13139)
>>> dicesim_gwf(100000,1,20,2,3,14,2,6)
(59745, 718465, 7.18465)
Output 3rd Level:
>>> dicesim_duel(100000,1,19,2,3,14,1,8)
(60419, 619405, 6.19405)
>>> dicesim_arch(100000,1,19,2,3,14,1,10)
(69815, 646214, 6.46214)
>>> dicesim_twf(100000,1,19,2,3,14,1,6)
(119790, 849033, 8.49033)
>>> dicesim_gwf(100000,1,19,2,3,14,2,6)
(59976, 762115, 7.62115)
Output 5th Level:
>>> dicesim_duel(100000,2,19,3,4,16,1,8)
(120056, 1352018, 13.52018)
>>> dicesim_arch(100000,2,19,3,4,16,1,8)
(140024, 1280541, 12.80541)
>>> dicesim_twf(100000,2,19,3,4,16,1,6)
(180287, 1457079, 14.57079)
>>> dicesim_gwf(100000,2,19,3,4,16,2,6)
(120257, 1651104, 16.51104)
Output 11th Level:
>>> dicesim_duel(100000,3,19,4,5,18,1,8)
(180125, 2206257, 22.06257)
>>> dicesim_arch(100000,3,19,4,5,18,1,8)
(210257, 2133683, 21.33683)
>>> dicesim_twf(100000,3,19,4,5,18,1,6)
(239982, 2179882, 21.79882)
>>> dicesim_gwf(100000,3,19,4,5,18,2,6)
(179996, 2651385, 26.51385)
I would say that the 11th level numbers are the fuzziest as you may very well be fighting mobs with less than 18 AC and you may have a magical item and/or a feat which will skew these numbers.
Python is free and easy to install if you want to play around with your own inputs or change the code.
TLDR: The Op is correct Fighter 1-4 does the most damage with TWF until 5th level where the fighter does the most damage with GWF. Outstanding wildcards that could change this recommendation are feats and magical weapons.
It takes the arguments:
nrolls - number of times to run the sim. For example 100000 would be the same as sitting down and recording the results of a 100000 attack rounds.
apr - this is the number of attacks the fighter has in a round (for twf it adds in the extra attack)
cn - critical hit number. For the starter set martial archetype this is 20 at 1st level, 19 at 3rd level, 18, at 15th level.
pn - proficiency bonus
an - ability bonus
ac - target AC you are attacking
ndice - number of dice your weapon has
dicetype - dice type your weapon uses
It returns:
h - number of hits
t - total damage
a - average damage per round
Code:
import random
def dicesim_gwf(nrolls, apr, cn, pn, an, ac, ndice, dicetype):
t = 0
h = 0
for i in range(nrolls): # repeat N experiments
for j in range(apr):
att = 0
matt = 0
att = random.randint(1,20)
matt = att+pn+an
if matt >= ac:
h = h+1
t = t+an
if att >= cn:
for k in range(ndice): #critroll 1
r = random.randint(1, dicetype) # roll die dicetype
if r <= 2: # reroll 1 or 2
r = random.randint(1, dicetype)
t = t+r
for l in range(ndice): #critroll 2
r = random.randint(1, dicetype) # roll die dicetype
if r <= 2: # reroll 1 or 2
r = random.randint(1, dicetype)
t = t+r
else:
for m in range(ndice):
r = random.randint(1, dicetype) # roll die dicetype
if r <= 2: # reroll 1 or 2
r = random.randint(1, dicetype)
t = t+r
a = float(t)/nrolls # average dpr
return h,t,a
def dicesim_twf(nrolls, apr, cn, pn, an, ac, ndice, dicetype):
t = 0
h = 0
for i in range(nrolls): # repeat N experiments
for j in range(apr+1):
att = 0
matt = 0
att = random.randint(1,20)
matt = att+pn+an
if matt >= ac:
h = h+1
t = t+an
if att >= cn:
for k in range(ndice): #critroll 1
r = random.randint(1, dicetype) # roll die dicetype
t = t+r
for l in range(ndice): #critroll 2
r = random.randint(1, dicetype) # roll die dicetype
t = t+r
else:
for m in range(ndice):
r = random.randint(1, dicetype) # roll die dicetype
t = t+r
a = float(t)/nrolls # average dpr
return h,t,a
def dicesim_arch(nrolls, apr, cn, pn, an, ac, ndice, dicetype):
t = 0
h = 0
for i in range(nrolls): # repeat N experiments
for j in range(apr):
att = 0
matt = 0
att = random.randint(1,20)
matt = att+pn+an+2
if matt >= ac:
h = h+1
t = t+an
if att >= cn:
for k in range(ndice): #critroll 1
r = random.randint(1, dicetype) # roll die dicetype
t = t+r
for l in range(ndice): #critroll 2
r = random.randint(1, dicetype) # roll die dicetype
t = t+r
else:
for m in range(ndice):
r = random.randint(1, dicetype) # roll die dicetype
t = t+r
a = float(t)/nrolls # average dpr
return h,t,a
def dicesim_duel(nrolls, apr, cn, pn, an, ac, ndice, dicetype):
t = 0
h = 0
for i in range(nrolls): # repeat N experiments
for j in range(apr):
att = 0
matt = 0
att = random.randint(1,20)
matt = att+pn+an
if matt >= ac:
h = h+1
t = t+an+2
if att >= cn:
for k in range(ndice): #critroll 1
r = random.randint(1, dicetype) # roll die dicetype
t = t+r
for l in range(ndice): #critroll 2
r = random.randint(1, dicetype) # roll die dicetype
t = t+r
else:
for m in range(ndice):
r = random.randint(1, dicetype) # roll die dicetype
t = t+r
a = float(t)/nrolls # average dpr
return h,t,aOutput 1st level:
>>> dicesim_duel(100000,1,20,2,3,14,1,8)
(59802, 590842, 5.90842)
>>> dicesim_arch(100000,1,20,2,3,14,1,10)
(69995, 622456, 6.22456)
>>> dicesim_twf(100000,1,20,2,3,14,1,6)
(119667, 813139, 8.13139)
>>> dicesim_gwf(100000,1,20,2,3,14,2,6)
(59745, 718465, 7.18465)
Output 3rd Level:
>>> dicesim_duel(100000,1,19,2,3,14,1,8)
(60419, 619405, 6.19405)
>>> dicesim_arch(100000,1,19,2,3,14,1,10)
(69815, 646214, 6.46214)
>>> dicesim_twf(100000,1,19,2,3,14,1,6)
(119790, 849033, 8.49033)
>>> dicesim_gwf(100000,1,19,2,3,14,2,6)
(59976, 762115, 7.62115)
Output 5th Level:
>>> dicesim_duel(100000,2,19,3,4,16,1,8)
(120056, 1352018, 13.52018)
>>> dicesim_arch(100000,2,19,3,4,16,1,8)
(140024, 1280541, 12.80541)
>>> dicesim_twf(100000,2,19,3,4,16,1,6)
(180287, 1457079, 14.57079)
>>> dicesim_gwf(100000,2,19,3,4,16,2,6)
(120257, 1651104, 16.51104)
Output 11th Level:
>>> dicesim_duel(100000,3,19,4,5,18,1,8)
(180125, 2206257, 22.06257)
>>> dicesim_arch(100000,3,19,4,5,18,1,8)
(210257, 2133683, 21.33683)
>>> dicesim_twf(100000,3,19,4,5,18,1,6)
(239982, 2179882, 21.79882)
>>> dicesim_gwf(100000,3,19,4,5,18,2,6)
(179996, 2651385, 26.51385)
I would say that the 11th level numbers are the fuzziest as you may very well be fighting mobs with less than 18 AC and you may have a magical item and/or a feat which will skew these numbers.
Python is free and easy to install if you want to play around with your own inputs or change the code.
TLDR: The Op is correct Fighter 1-4 does the most damage with TWF until 5th level where the fighter does the most damage with GWF. Outstanding wildcards that could change this recommendation are feats and magical weapons.
Last edited:
Thanks Grumpy - I actually downloaded and installed Python based on your recommendation and to run your script. Fantastic stuff. A couple of questions...
It's not clear to me that the code registers a hit whenever a 20 is rolled (regardless of ac). Does it?
I used your code to simulate rogue damage and (assuming my code mods are correct - which is a stretch), rogues look to out-damage fighters through level 11. Did you discover the same?
GrumpyGamer
First Post
It does not model a 20 as an always hit or a 1 as an always miss. You could add an if/elif/else to check for these cases. If you are interested in creating a sim for a halfling you would need to do this anyway to model lucky.
I am not sure when the fighters extra attacks catch up with a rogue, but at first level the rogue should do more damage as a d6 is worth more than a starting ability modifier of 3. Also you get it evenif you miss with the second attack.
I am typing this on a mobile device so excuse the typos/brevity.
I am not sure when the fighters extra attacks catch up with a rogue, but at first level the rogue should do more damage as a d6 is worth more than a starting ability modifier of 3. Also you get it evenif you miss with the second attack.
I am typing this on a mobile device so excuse the typos/brevity.
ZombieRoboNinja
First Post
I think it's fair to assume that these numbers will change drastically with different subclasses and especially feats factored in, so while these numbers are a good starting point, they may well not reflect the situation once the PHB is out. (For example, if I recall the great weapon feat gave a huge DPR boost in the open play test.)
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