Half dragons - underpowered?

[Snipehunt]

The LA accounts for high-level characters, not just low- and mid-. A halfdragon fighter2 may seem a little weaker than a human fighter5. But at 15th level, the human fighter15 can be overmatched by that +4 natural armor and +8 strength of the half-dragon fighter12.

 

[Grog]

The +8 to strength also affects damage, tripping, and grappling. Honestly, +8 to any stat is nuts. In order to copy it with an item, it would be an epic item.

I fully agree that the bonus to damage is significant. But as for tripping and grappling, you'll never be as good at that as the monsters you're fighting even with a +8 to strength.

The +2 to con will net 34 extra hit points at ECL 20, so it may be even more than 3 hit dice from class, depending on what you are.

+2 con only gives you 17 extra HP at ECL 20. For a human fighter, 3 extra hit dice will get him 34.5 HP, on average (assuming a 22 con, which is probably a bit low for a 20th level fighter).

Flight may only be work if you're large, but if you're in a campaign that's powergamed enough to let you play a half dragon, it wouldn't be out of the question to be a large race on top of it. Do you get the flight ability if you are Enlarged?

No, because you only have wings if you're large size or bigger.

 

[Camarath]

True. But two levels later, the human's getting three attacks, while the half-dragon is stuck at two for three more levels. Also, the human can grab a two-hander and Power Attack for 3 points, which puts him even with the half-dragon for damage. AC won't be as good, true, but he'll have more HP, more feats, and more iterative attacks.

Fighter lv 11 attacks
Longsword or Greatsword +11/+6/+1
Half-dragon Fighter lv 8 attacks
Longsword +8/+3 Claw +3 Bite +3 or
Greatsword +8/+3 Bite +3

The Half Dragon also has a +4 to attack and a +4 to Damage (+6 with a two-haned weapon) which I have not included.

 

[Snipehunt]

True. But two levels later, the human's getting three attacks, while the half-dragon is stuck at two for three more levels. Also, the human can grab a two-hander and Power Attack for 3 points, which puts him even with the half-dragon for damage. AC won't be as good, true, but he'll have more HP, more feats, and more iterative attacks.

How do you power attack for 3 w/ a two-hander? You can't take -1.5 to attack.

If you power attack, the last iterative attack is fools gold. You're not going to hit often with a BAB +0 or so attack. The extra feats are nice, but once you get GWS and Improved Crit, there's not a lot that adds to the base fighter power. The rest are generally candy - nice, fun, use 'em if you want 'em.

Anyway, the strength of the half-dragon is a paladin. +8 str, +2 cha, +4 natural armor is good synergy for those builds. Figther doesn't take advantage of all the half-dragon abilities.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Urban Arcana has a dragon-blooded template - I find that a much superior option for sorcerers.

 

[CRGreathouse]

True. But two levels later, the human's getting three attacks, while the half-dragon is stuck at two for three more levels. Also, the human can grab a two-hander and Power Attack for 3 points, which puts him even with the half-dragon for damage. AC won't be as good, true, but he'll have more HP, more feats, and more iterative attacks.

If the ECL 9 human I presented took a greatsword and Power Attacked for 3 points, he'd have an attack bonus 3 lower than the half-dragon's, and AC 4 lower. This is a significant loss for a melee character -- and I'll point out that the loss in AC makes the human less survivable in combat than the half-dragon, -10 hp notwithstanding.

Less survivability (goes down in combat faster) and a lower attack bonus? That's not a positive comparison.

It's true, though, that the half-dragon won't get the third attack when the human does. Let's do an 11th-level comparison:

Human (shield): +8 hp, +3 feats, attacks 0/-5/-10 (vs. 0/-5), -10 damage
Human (greatsword): +8 hp, +3 feats, attacks -4/-9/-14 (vs. 0/-5), -4 AC

Again, this ignores other benefits like the Cha and Int boost (useful for Expertise/Whirlwind Attack/Improved X) and energy immunity.

 

[CRGreathouse]

How do you power attack for 3 w/ a two-hander? You can't take -1.5 to attack.

If you power attack, the last iterative attack is fools gold. You're not going to hit often with a BAB +0 or so attack. The extra feats are nice, but once you get GWS and Improved Crit, there's not a lot that adds to the base fighter power. The rest are generally candy - nice, fun, use 'em if you want 'em.

His numbers assume Power Attacking for -3 attack, +6 damage.

I agree about the last attack, though -- see the greatsword example of mine just above this post, where the human's last attack is 14 lower than the half-dragon's primary attack.

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

Really now, when comparing stats, use something simple without basing things off of item gains and such for the ECL 17's.

Lets base both characters off of a straight 10's average for both, so they are equal.

Half dragon, 18, 10, 12, 12, 10, 12 (Total +7) Human 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 (0)

Now, level 17 Half-Dragon and Level 20 Human

20, 10, 14, 12, 10, 12 -------------- 12, 10, 13, 10, 10, 10

WF+GWF+(+5 weapon)=+29 -------- same=+28
WS+GWS+(+5 weapon)+strength=+14 Damage-------same=+10
2h weapon=+16 ----------------- same=+10
HP by Average Half-D=144.5 ------------- Human=130
AC With +5 Full Plate Half-D=AC 27 ------------ Human=AC 23
Special attacks Half-D=Claw, Bite, Breath ------- Human=None
Attack Progression=29/24/19/14(weapon) and bite +24. Human=28/23/18/13
Skills=Same due to Half-D's int boost.
Feats=Human has 4 more at that level over-all.
Special Defenses=Natural Armor and Element Immunity, as well as sleep and paralysis immunity.
Special Qualities, Low-light visions Darkvision 60' (elf and dwarf combined anyone?)

Based on this information, I'd say the Half-Dragon might be SLIGHTLY underpowered, depending on what you make.
As was mentioned a Paladin would make an EXCELLENT candidate for Half-Dragons because of the Charisma boost (Bonus saves, healing, turning, etc.)
All in all, it depends on what you want your half-dragon to be, a fighter obviously isn't the BEST candidate. I'd say Paladin, Sorceror, or Wizard are best.

Calrin

 

[FrankTrollman]

The real problem, of course, is that a Half Dragon is a multiclassed character which doesn't cause multiclass XP penalties and requires special DM permission. That means that it is a Prestige Class. So don't compare taking 3 more levels of your class to being a Half Dragon - compare taking 3 levels of Frenzied Berserker (or some other damage oriented class) to being a Half Dragon.

It's just no contest. The Frenzied Berserker levels add in more save bonuses, more hit points, more total attack bonuses, more damage bonuses, and better abilities. The Half Dragon is a little iffy at a LA of +2 - especially with that crappy Breath Weapon. At LA +3, it's a bad joke.

-Frank

 

[Crothian]

Except one doesn't have to waste the skill points, the feats, and the other prerequites of getting a prestige class. So, I wouldn't compaire the template to a prestige class.