Half dragons - underpowered?

[Aelryinth]

everyone is ignoring some other things..

Darkvision and low light vision are ALWAYS nice.
He's also a dragon...immunity to stuff that only affects humanoids.
Elemental Immunity takes an 8th level spell to duplicate, I believe.
Gets to keep ALL base skills of whatever race he is...including human bonus feats!
Throw an Enlarge on him and he spouts wings.
Breathe fire = low level survival made easier. Good for party jokes.
He's never, ever unarmed. Why spend a feat on it?
If you have racial HD, they all go up a die type...going to take some levels in Giant? d12 HD now. Some people even play it as applying to class levels...but it would apply to AU racial levels, or alternate core race racial ones if you use them.

half dragons probably more fair as ECL+4 at higher levels...the bonuses become more valuable as time goes on and the half dragon gets the cushion of more HD to take care of his one weakness.

==Aelryinth

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The real problem, of course, is that a Half Dragon is a multiclassed character which doesn't cause multiclass XP penalties and requires special DM permission. That means that it is a Prestige Class. So don't compare taking 3 more levels of your class to being a Half Dragon - compare taking 3 levels of Frenzied Berserker (or some other damage oriented class) to being a Half Dragon.

It's just no contest. The Frenzied Berserker levels add in more save bonuses, more hit points, more total attack bonuses, more damage bonuses, and better abilities. The Half Dragon is a little iffy at a LA of +2 - especially with that crappy Breath Weapon. At LA +3, it's a bad joke.

-Frank

So? The frenzied berserker is broken. Why not compare it to the original Shadow Adept?

In any event, the half-dragon gives three natural attacks. That's great for use with sneak attacks. The template should probably have varying level adjustments based on who is taking it (it's not worth as much for a sorcerer as a fighter, for instance).

 

[FrankTrollman]

It also compares poorly to being polymorphed in battle.

And with a 3 level lead-time - that's entirely a possibility.

-Frank

 

[mmu1]

It also compares poorly to being polymorphed in battle.

And with a 3 level lead-time - that's entirely a possibility.

-Frank

Half-dragons are great...

They're one of the few ECL+ builds useful for fighter-types that actually let you come out slightly ahead in terms of to hit bonus compared to a standard race, while boosting your damage incredibly.

The fact that you're not a humanoid is also pretty big - it helps a lot with the fighter's Achilles' heal, Will saves.

The +2 to Int and Cha are also quite good - with rolled scores, they let you, as someone mentioned, make more effective Paladins or multi-classed characters, with point-buy, they give you more points to spend on your physical stats.

In 3.5, with Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon (say, a spiked chain) they become so absurdly good it ought to be illegal, because unlike Grapple, Trip doesn't take BAB into account except on the (usually) laughably easy touch attack to initiate it.

The +4 natural armor saves you 32,000 you'd have to spend on an Amulet of Natural Armor +4, which is non-trivial at any but the highest levels, and it allows you to use a two-handed weapon and maintain an excellent AC, allowing you to take an even bigger advantage of the +8 Str bonus.

 

[Deset Gled]

It also compares poorly to being polymorphed in battle.

This comparison is heavily campaign based. Having this template, the character will have the bonuses all the time, every day, in every situation. Polymorphing assumes that there is a caster willing/able to use a spell to buff you up every day, possibly multiple times a day. It's also subject to dispelling, AMF, can't be used if you get separated from other party members, etc, etc. Polymorphing may be a good (possible even superior) strategy in many situations, but it's nowhere near as reliable as having racial bonuses.

The concept of taking a prestige class instead of the template is very similar. I've no doubt that there are better min/maxing options that the half dragon template, but PrCs are also subject to DM aproval, and they may limit your choices as to specialization even further. No offense, Frank, but if I had a player who wanted to use PrCs the way you do, I would probably flat out deny them access to any PrCs out of principle (and to make it easier on me to keep them from getting out of hand). Again, it's really a campaign issue.

I fully agree that the bonus to damage is significant. But as for tripping and grappling, you'll never be as good at that as the monsters you're fighting even with a +8 to strength.
...
+2 con only gives you 17 extra HP at ECL 20

The +8 to strength alone may not be enough to overcome many monsters, but it's a heck of a start to any build based on grappling or tripping. Add items, buffs, and level increases, being a monk or a dwarf on top of it, and you will stand a good chance against a lot of mosters. Not to mention the fact that you could probably beat most humanoid opponents without even trying.

My bad mistake on the math. That 17 HP is a bit of a hit, but it's still something. It would be even more significant if you are a monk, rogue, or other class with a lower hit die than fighter.

 

[Snipehunt]

His numbers assume Power Attacking for -3 attack, +6 damage.

Aah, that makes sense. Not the way I would have phrased it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Half-dragons are great...

They're one of the few ECL+ builds useful for fighter-types that actually let you come out slightly ahead in terms of to hit bonus compared to a standard race, while boosting your damage incredibly.

Compare to an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale, though

-Hyp.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I have run many Half-dragons. The extra iterative attack matters about as much as spit on the ground.

The strength bonus alone more than makes up for the loss of base attack. You do an insane amount of damage, especially if using a 2handed-weapon. The +4 AC is also huge. An extra attack with your bite at negative five is helpful.

In every game I have run, the Half-dragon makes human fighter-types look like gimps. It only gets worse as they rise in levels and obtain magic item. They are also immune to so many spells that regular human or demi-human fighters are affected by like Hold Person or Charm Person. They are also immune to sleep and paralysis which is absolutely awsome.

Heck, the half-dragon in the campaign I was running wasn't paralyzed by the Blasphemy a demon cast because of his immunity to paralysis. He can't be affected by a Lich's permanent paralysis touch. Immunity to paralysis and sleep is worth an ECL alone. He also gets an immunity to single element. That is awsome.

If your half-dragon seems weak, then you probably made a caster. Any ECL caster is usually going to be weaker than a humanoid caster. The ECL system really does not work for casters, one of the reasons I don't like it very much.

A Half-dragon melee is a terror. I would say a Paladin is the optimal melee class for a Half-dragon.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Having this template, the character will have the bonuses all the time, every day, in every situation.

And Polymorph Any Object lasts forever - so once you get access to an 8th level spell (even from a scroll) the template is a waste of time. So the template has a time limit. At 7th level and below it renders you subject to Cloud Kill and Color Spray - making you essentially krill. At high levels the template does nothing at all.

Is it so awesome in the mid-range high levels that it justifies the loss of three levels off the high end of your character both now and in the future when it doesn't even get you anything? I would submit that it does not.

-Frank

 

[reapersaurus]

If the Half-Dragon is underpowered at ECL 3, than you might as well chuck almost every single ECL rating out the window, because almost all of them are worse than the Half-Dragon.