Half dragons - underpowered?

[mmu1]

That Breath Weapon is completely useless at ECL 12 - that you are still "paying for it" is absurd. That Natural Armor is completely useless around ECL 14 - that you are still "paying for it" is absurd.

And so on. Heck, noone gives a damn about Charm Person at 12th level - even people who know it are using Charm Monster on people because it has a better Save DC. The Half Dragon's abilities scale down as they grow in level and approach zero as character level approaches 17. The Half Dragon's loss of hit dice is always a crippling cost at all levels (although I think it stings most at levels below six where you are losing more than half of your hit dice and levels above 8 where you are giving up prestige class levels).

-Frank

You really like hyperbole, don't you?

An Amulet of Natural armor +4 represents over 20% of a 14th level character's standard wealth, and between the need for a +3 or +4 weapon, decent armor and shield, stat boosting items, a cloak of protection, and a ring of protection (which is much more useful than an Amulet of Natural armor, for the same cost, since it adds to touch AC), and preferably an item or two to let you fly and see in the dark, there's no way you'll be able to find the 32,000 gold to spend on 4 points of natural armor. The +4 natural armor doesn't even begin to lose usefulness in 3.0 until 16th or 17th level, and in 3.5 it never does because it stacks with an amulet.

Charm Person? Hardly the #1 fear of all fighters. If you could replace it with Hold Monster, you might have a point, but as the half-dragon is immune to paralysis...

Breath weapon useless at level 12? Where did you pull that number from (and do I really want to know the answer)?

Hit point loss? It's huge at low levels, but hardly anyone starts one at 1st level, and at the levels you're talking about, a difference of 20-odd hit points is practically irrelevant.

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

The Half-Dragon template increases the HD to the next highest hit die, capping at d12 (sorry barbarians). So, a level 20 FTR w/22 Con would have 234.5 HP, a level 17 Half Dragon FTR w/24 Con would have 226. A difference of 6.5.

(For Starters, using the Half-Dragons NEW HD of d12, it's average is 6.5, with max at first level. 16*6.5=104+12=116+(7*17)=235. Now, the human. Average of 5.5, max at first level. 19*5.5=104.5+10=114.5+(20*6)=234.5. The difference is actually only .5, with the H-D winning it.)

A level 20 FTR would have a BAB of +20/+15/+10/+5

A level 17 FTR would have a BAB of +17/+12/+7
With Improved Natual Attack his Bite would be d8, and if taken a second time, his claw would be d6.
Also, Multiattack would make his natual attacks to +17/+15/+15

(I'm sorry, did we forget that at level 17 one has 4 attacks, 17/12/7/2 Plus a bite at +12 or +15 with multiattack feat?)

Assuming that the magic items gathered by the Half-Dragon will match the + to hit/Damage that the human's magic weapons have. Now the +8 to STR makes the Half-Dragon's natual attacks +21/+16/+16

(Why is the Half-Dragon only being given the benefit of his natural attacks here? Especially since he can use weapons as well/better than a human of equal ECL.)

Calrin

 

[apsuman]

The Half-Dragon template increases the HD to the next highest hit die, capping at d12 (sorry barbarians). So, a level 20 FTR w/22 Con would have 234.5 HP, a level 17 Half Dragon FTR w/24 Con would have 226. A difference of 6.5.

(For Starters, using the Half-Dragons NEW HD of d12, it's average is 6.5, with max at first level. 16*6.5=104+12=116+(7*17)=235. Now, the human. Average of 5.5, max at first level. 19*5.5=104.5+10=114.5+(20*6)=234.5. The difference is actually only .5, with the H-D winning it.)

Thanks. I must have done the math incorrectly.

A level 20 FTR would have a BAB of +20/+15/+10/+5

A level 17 FTR would have a BAB of +17/+12/+7
With Improved Natual Attack his Bite would be d8, and if taken a second time, his claw would be d6.
Also, Multiattack would make his natual attacks to +17/+15/+15

(I'm sorry, did we forget that at level 17 one has 4 attacks, 17/12/7/2 Plus a bite at +12 or +15 with multiattack feat?)

I thought that if you were to use your natual attack (as a full attack action) that you lost your iterative attacks.

Assuming that the magic items gathered by the Half-Dragon will match the + to hit/Damage that the human's magic weapons have. Now the +8 to STR makes the Half-Dragon's natual attacks +21/+16/+16

(Why is the Half-Dragon only being given the benefit of his natural attacks here? Especially since he can use weapons as well/better than a human of equal ECL.)

Calrin

For two reasons, first I was trying to type this up in a hurry, and second, if you were to compare long sword weilding Human versus a 3 level less long sword weilding HalfDragon the discussion boils down to this:

The +8 to STR effectively balances out the loss of the last (woosy) iterative attack and the +4 damage above what the human had is surely a huge advantage.

So, basically I was trying to handicapp the HalfDragon.

g!

 

[reapersaurus]

I thought that if you were to use your natual attack (as a full attack action) that you lost your iterative attacks.

This is one of the more misunderstood rules.

Manufactured Weapons:
Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with
the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

So the Half-Dragon would get 2 more attacks (1 claw and 1 bite) if he was using a longsword and no shield.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This is one of the more misunderstood rules.

Yup. See the minotaur for an example of combining iterative greataxe with natural gore.

-Hyp.

 

[Deset Gled]

You are forgetting "Same Size" and "Same Kingdom" (mammals in this case) - for a total of +11 (permanent is +9).

"Same Kingdom" does not apply, since a dragon is not a mammal (at least, I assumed they aren't mammals, though I don't know if it's specifically stated anywhere. Having scales and laying eggs seems pretty convincing, though). The "Same Size" does, though. My mistake.

The Level Allowance rules fiasco was introduced into a game which already had Polymorph Other that lasted forever and Polymorph Any Object which lasted forever and was better. Thus, the entire Level Allowance system was comically overpriced and horrendously underpowered when it was written.

While I think it for the most part is fairly accurate, I don;t think the inclusion of a couple Polymorph spells are the best evidence for that phrase : it's just evidence of how broken the 2 Polymorph spells are.

I agree that the polymorph spells in 3.5 are awful. If we want to discuss that in more detail, though, we should probably start another thread. As for the topic at hand...

Frank, your main arguement for the half dragon being underpowered is that it is trumped by polymorph spells. If there were no other way to become a half dragon than to take the template with level adjustment, do you think it would still be underpowered?

 

[FrankTrollman]

An Amulet of Natural armor +4 represents over 20% of a 14th level character's standard wealth,

So?

Who said anything about getting an amulet of natural armor? In fact, the amulet of natural armor in 3.5 is an enhancement bonus and applies equally to the Half Dragon as it does to anyone else.

However, transformation magic is a fact of Dungeons and Dragons. So when asking whether or not a Fighter is better off as a human or as a Half Dragon, you must consider that the Human will have an extra feat by virtue of having 3 more hit dice - and that that feat can be leadership and that that cohort can be a Transmuter who is dedicated to transforming our hero into a big moster every fighter.

Really. That's a real option. Whether or not you like it, being allowed to play a "Half Dragon" is considered "optional" while being allowed to transform into a Troll is not.

Level Allowance characters are the "weird edge case", transformation magic is the game standard. The fact that transforming is a lot better than being a Level Allowance character is indisputable proof that being a LA character "sucks".

Now, we could debate various strength builds, and how far you could go with three levels of multiclassing and PrCs vs. having the Half Dragon template until we are blue in the face - that would be interesting and probably get a lot of arguments for both sides. But it doesn't matter, because with the rules as written you can have your cake and eat it too. In fact, a character without the Half Dragon template can be transformed into more powerful things at a lower level - and in 3.5 his type changes anyway so the Half Dragon doesn't even get any advantage out of his type immunities.

With the rules as written it costs less to be a "normal" race and then transform into a strong creature than it does to be a strong creature in the first place. And the transformation is the core class/race standard and the strong race is extremely optional material that requires DM approval in 5 seperate steps of the character creation process.

-Frank

 

[FrankTrollman]

Frank, your main arguement for the half dragon being underpowered is that it is trumped by polymorph spells. If there were no other way to become a half dragon than to take the template with level adjustment, do you think it would still be underpowered?

Yes I do.

Taking 3 levels of "Barbarian" gives you 3 hit dice; 3 BAB; +3 ranks in skills; +3 Hit Dice to avoid Cloud Kill, Circle of Death, and Blasphemy kills; bonuses to all saves; faster movement; a bonus feat; Uncanny Dodge; and Rage twice a day.

Throw in some Rage and some good old fashioned over-balanced 3.5 Power Attack and the Barbarian is hitting more and doing more damage. And the Barbarian has better skills and is more survivable. And you can throw in PrCs that are even more focused into hitting things and come out farther ahead.

The fact that you can transform into something stronger than the Half Dragon simply renders an unfavorable comparison into a "no contest".

-Frank

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

I think a good compromise for ECLs is to base it on the class being played. For instance in our game we have ruled that half-ogre's are fine at ECL +1 for all classes except Fighter and Barbarian, which are ECL +2. I think a similar method could be applied to the half-dragon, reducing its ECL to +2 if someone wants to play a sorcerer, druid, cleric. etc..

Dirge

 

[Crothian]

I think a good compromise for ECLs is to base it on the class being played. For instance in our game we have ruled that half-ogre's are fine at ECL +1 for all classes except Fighter and Barbarian, which are ECL +2. I think a similar method could be applied to the half-dragon, reducing its ECL to +2 if someone wants to play a sorcerer, druid, cleric. etc..

Dirge

What do you do with people who multi class?