Half dragons - underpowered?

[Deset Gled]

And Polymorph Any Object lasts forever - so once you get access to an 8th level spell (even from a scroll) the template is a waste of time. So the template has a time limit. At 7th level and below it renders you subject to Cloud Kill and Color Spray - making you essentially krill. At high levels the template does nothing at all.

Is it so awesome in the mid-range high levels that it justifies the loss of three levels off the high end of your character both now and in the future when it doesn't even get you anything? I would submit that it does not.

-Frank

PAO doesn't always last forever. In this case, I believe it would last 1 week: +5 to the duration factor for both being animals, and +2 for them having the same intelligence, for a total of 7. Also, it can still be dispelled, and won't work in an AMF

To be honest, though, I think that the bigger problem in the situation you paint is the spell, not the LA. A level 8 spell that allows long term/permanent changes in a character's race, creating a free way around LA? If this spell is allowed as written in a game, there's really no need for using ECLs and LAs in the first place (and I think most people will agree that having a monstrous race needs LA).

I realize that it may be a bit of fallacy to consider it, but do you think the +3 LA would still be underpowered if PAO was not an option for obtaining the template?

 

[Dthamilaye]

IMC, I give my H-D player still the same perk as in 3.0ed.
He can always raise his hitdice to one higher than the class he is in (Max d12). Ie, if he is a fighter, he gets d12 hit dice roll (d10->d12). As a wizard, he would have d6 hit dice roll.

Thats the way I understood it in 3.0. They changed it in 3.5 (or made it clear), but as I compared the template to half-celestial (another player), I thought it was bit weak but didn't want to lower it to +2 as it would have been too good then. So I gave the hit dice raise still.

The Half-celestial IMHO is much much more powerful. . It is +4 ECL now, but without wings, it would be +3 ECL (my player didn't get wings initially, didn't succeed in the 75% roll).

 

[Dthamilaye]

Compare this to H-D, if you want...

Half-Celestial (Without wings, as +3 ECL. With wings (official) +4 ECL):

Type: native outsider
-> Darkvision 60'
-> Proficient in ALL simple and martial weapons
-> Immune to all 'person' spells (hold/dominate etc)
-> Still resurrectable

Natural armour +1
Daylight (Su): At will
Smite Evil (Su): 1/day

Additional SLAs (1/day unless otherwise specified):
LvL
1–2 Protection from evil 3/day, bless
3–4 Aid, detect evil
5–6 Cure serious wounds, neutralize poison
7–8 Holy smite, remove disease
9–10 Dispel evil
11–12 Holy word
13–14 Holy aura 3/day, hallow
15–16 Mass charm monster
17–18 Summon monster IX (celestials only)
19–20 Resurrection

Immunity to disease.

Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and electricity 10.

Damage reduction: 5/magic (lvl/HD 11 or less) or 10/magic (lvl/HD 12 or more).

A half-celestial’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Spell resistance equal to creature’s lvl/HD + 10 (maximum 35).

+4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison.

Stat bonuses:
Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4

***At this point, the guy is +3 ECL****

Add wings and he becomes +4 ECL.

Busts out half-dragon quite well IMHO.

 

[Darklone]

The halfdragon actually has less hitpoints since the fighter has three HD more as well as three times his Con Bonus.

 

[Celtavian]

re

And Polymorph Any Object lasts forever - so once you get access to an 8th level spell (even from a scroll) the template is a waste of time. So the template has a time limit. At 7th level and below it renders you subject to Cloud Kill and Color Spray - making you essentially krill. At high levels the template does nothing at all.

Is it so awesome in the mid-range high levels that it justifies the loss of three levels off the high end of your character both now and in the future when it doesn't even get you anything? I would submit that it does not.

-Frank

Yeah, and the template makes you immune to Charm or Dominate Person and Hold Person. Any spell, spell-like ability or special attack that causes sleep or paralysis. All damage from at least one element. You get stat bonuses that more than make up for your lost BA so that at 17th level you have not only have a better chance to hit than every other fighter, but most likely you are much harder to hit. You don't have to worry about Banishment like those pesky extraplanar templates.

And Gee, here is the kicker. You don't have to worry about your abilities being dispelled by a higher level caster. You are medium-sized. Half-dragon is probably the best medium-sized template or creature out there.

On top of all this, you get the base racial characteristics of the base race. Sounds like a great deal to me. Since I play one and kick more ass than humanoid fighters, I would say I have a pretty clear idea of how good they are. Especially greataxe wielding, power attacking characters with cleave and great cleave. More than makes up for the lag in iterative attacks. Hell, I even have darkvision to boot.

Best bang for the buck template in the game IMO.

 

[CRGreathouse]

It also compares poorly to being polymorphed in battle.

And with a 3 level lead-time - that's entirely a possibility.

-Frank

Being polymorphed in battle means you'll get the average racial scores for the type -- you won't increase your Str by 8, you'll get Str 18. As such, it compares pretty favorably.

 

[FrankTrollman]

In this case, I believe it would last 1 week: +5 to the duration factor for both being animals, and +2 for them having the same intelligence, for a total of 7.

You are forgetting "Same Size" and "Same Kingdom" (mammals in this case) - for a total of +11 (permanent is +9). Of course, you can be a irbolg instead, and walk away with a Strength of 36.

To be honest, though, I think that the bigger problem in the situation you paint is the spell, not the LA. A level 8 spell that allows long term/permanent changes in a character's race, creating a free way around LA? If this spell is allowed as written in a game, there's really no need for using ECLs and LAs in the first place (and I think most people will agree that having a monstrous race needs LA).

But the Polymorph Any Object spell has squatter's rights. The Level Allowance rules fiasco was introduced into a game which already had Polymorph Other that lasted forever and Polymorph Any Object which lasted forever and was better. Thus, the entire Level Allowance system was comically overpriced and horrendously underpowered when it was written.

Being a "Half Dragon" is useful only so long as you are getting a bonus to your strength from it. However, from the very first time they wrote rules for playing one that was objectively not the case. In order to even begin to fix these monstrous races, you'd have to have the Half Dragon Strength bonus apply to your new forms after changing form. And you'd have to have a scaling level cost where you paid less and less the higher level you are. That Breath Weapon is completely useless at ECL 12 - that you are still "paying for it" is absurd. That Natural Armor is completely useless around ECL 14 - that you are still "paying for it" is absurd.

And so on. Heck, noone gives a damn about Charm Person at 12th level - even people who know it are using Charm Monster on people because it has a better Save DC. The Half Dragon's abilities scale down as they grow in level and approach zero as character level approaches 17. The Half Dragon's loss of hit dice is always a crippling cost at all levels (although I think it stings most at levels below six where you are losing more than half of your hit dice and levels above 8 where you are giving up prestige class levels).

-Frank

 

[reapersaurus]

Thus, the entire Level Allowance system was comically overpriced and horrendously underpowered when it was written.

That is a GREAT, very quotable phrase.

While I think it for the most part is fairly accurate, I don;t think the inclusion of a couple Polymorph spells are the best evidence for that phrase : it's just evidence of how broken the 2 Polymorph spells are.

 

[Camarath]

Since there is no Mercury IMC I don't have to worry about Polymorph Any Object.

 

[apsuman]

Enlarge is actually Enlarge Person, and as such will not work on a half dragon.

The Half-Dragon template increases the HD to the next highest hit die, capping at d12 (sorry barbarians). So, a level 20 FTR w/22 Con would have 234.5 HP, a level 17 Half Dragon FTR w/24 Con would have 226. A difference of 6.5.

A level 20 FTR would have a BAB of +20/+15/+10/+5

A level 17 FTR would have a BAB of +17/+12/+7
With Improved Natual Attack his Bite would be d8, and if taken a second time, his claw would be d6.
Also, Multiattack would make his natual attacks to +17/+15/+15

Assuming that the magic items gathered by the Half-Dragon will match the + to hit/Damage that the human's magic weapons have. Now the +8 to STR makes the Half-Dragon's natual attacks +21/+16/+16

If there were an opponent that required an 11 or higher for the human to hit his average damage against siad opponent would be 50% hit on first attack + 25% to hit on attack number 2 + 5% to hit on attack number 3 + 5% to hit on attack number 4. HIs average damage would be:

85% * (weapon damage + str bonus + magic) or
85% * weapon damage + 85%*(str bonus + magic)

Using the same math for the half dragon, average damage would be:

55%*(4.5 + str bonus + magic) + 60% * (3.5 + str bonus + magic) or

3.575 + 115% * (str bonus + magic)

so, the question here is one of the Str bonus plus the magic bonus of the half dragon overcoming the (assumed) higher damage from the weapon of the human. Given that the +4 from the STR is almost as good as the +5 weapon the human surely has, an amulet of magic fang only has to be +1 to make it even and an amulet of +4 would really boost it up.


So, I think the +3 ecl is about right.


g!