Half-Elves and wands

[LightPhoenix]

So our hypothetical half-elf fighter who has Magic Missile as an Encounter power can use the Daily power of the +2 Wand of Fiery Bolt to cast Fiery Bolt once per day, but can't use the wand to gain +2 to the attack and damage rolls of his Magic Missile, right?

I would argue no, and furthermore he can't use the power either.

Dilettente only lets you use an At-Will from another class as an Encounter. You don't count as being a member of the class. I think we can agree on that.

In which case, I think the first paragraph on page 242 (under Wands) applies over the second:

A wand is a slender, tapered piece of wood, enchanted to channel arcane energy. If you are a member of a class that can use a wand as an implement, you can apply the enhancement bonus of a wand to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of any of your powers from that class that have the implement keyword, and you can use a wand’s properties and powers. Members of other classes gain no benefit from wielding a wand.

Using a wand’s power works like using the power normally. To do so, you need to be able to use at least one power from the same power source as the wand. For example, a rogue who has picked up at least one wizard power through multiclassing feats could use a wizard power in a wand, since each knows one power that uses the arcane power source. Several wands appear below, but you can also design your own.

First off, the first paragraph applies for every implement - you need to be able to use the implement to use the power. This is reproduced in each implement section.

The second paragraph doesn't apply, as you've failed the first prerequisite - a member of the class able to use the implement. A Half-Elf Fighter with Dilettente does not qualify.

I will admit, the second paragraph is written poorly. I think the intent was either to leave the option open for divine wands (perhaps a choice at one stage) or a hold-over in that Wizards and Warlocks were considered different, and you had to be trained in the class to use that classes' powers.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I will admit, the second paragraph is written poorly.

Poorly?

A Rogue is not a member of a class that can use a wand as an implement.

Therefore we know that the rogue gains no benefit from wielding a wand.

However, we also know that a rogue who has picked up at least one wizard power through multiclassing feats could use a wizard power in a wand.

"Using a wizard power in a wand" is, apparently, separate to "a benefit from wielding a wand", since someone who is not a member of a class that can use a wand as an implement gains no benefit from wielding, but can use a wizard power in a wand if they know one power that uses the arcane power source.

You're saying the second paragraph only applies if you're a member of a class that can use a wand as an implement, but the character discussed by the second paragraph is not a member of a class that can use a wand as an implement.

There's a difference between "written poorly" and "completely inaccurate and nonsensical".

-Hyp.

 

[jdpacheco]

I would say that:
(a) Yes, a half-elf who uses Dilettante to acquire a wizard (or warlock) power can use a wand to access the Daily power. He does not gain any *other* benefits from the wand
(b) This is *not* earth shattering. If the Half-Elf wants to spend all his money on a wand to get a single power once power once per day, rather than on an item more appropriate for his class/role, let him. It's once per day, and it's something they need to invest in.

Of course, I'm sure someone will come out and say "But what about Power X for a Fighter?" or something of the sort... and someone else will say "He'll never need multiclass feats!"... and I say "pshaw". They're all investments, of varying sorts.

In defense of the "Rogue isn't a wand wielding class so they shouldn't be able to benefit from the power like it says they can."...

Arcane Initiate: "In addition, you can use an orb, a staff, or a wand as an implement when using a wizard power or a wizard paragon path power."
Pact Initiate: "In addition you can use a rod, a wand, or a pact blade..." (rest of the text is similar.

Therefore, Rogues (or any class) can use wands by virtue of the Multiclass feats, whatever your ruling on the Half-Elf.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Therefore, Rogues (or any class) can use wands by virtue of the Multiclass feats, whatever your ruling on the Half-Elf.

Ahh... I'd missed that.

The Rogue with the Arcane Initiate feat is, then, (arguably) a member of a class which can use a wand, while the Half-Elf Fighter is not.

So the Initiate Rogue can both use the daily power and gain the enhancement bonus, while the Half-Elf Fighter can do neither...

-Hyp.

 

[fuindordm]

The rogue case still almost makes sense.

The Arcane Initiate feat specifies that the rough "counts as a wizard for the purpose of taking feats and paragon paths" and "can use implements with a wizard power or wizard paragon path power" (OK, paraphrased--not direct quotes).

So by taking the feat, the character becomes an exception to the general rule for implement use. No problems there. The feat doesn't specifically mention that they can activate the implements, but does specifically mention that they can use them to boost appropriate powers.

On this basis one might argue that a rogue with Arcane Initiate cannot activate wands before they get their first power swap feat at level 4. Once they have one wizard power, however, they meet both criteria specified in the general description of implements.

 

[Khime]

Too many replies came in before I saved mine, made my comment redundant.

 

[Hypersmurf]

On this basis one might argue that a rogue with Arcane Initiate cannot activate wands before they get their first power swap feat at level 4. Once they have one wizard power, however, they meet both criteria specified in the general description of implements.

But the Arcane Initiate feat grants him a 1st level wizard at-will power, which he can use once per encounter. With only the Arcane Initiate feat and no power-swap feats, he already has one wizard power.

-Hyp.

 

[Andor]

I don't think there is any question but that multi-classing into wizard or warlock gives one access to all wands.

On the 1/2 elf it occurs to me that in blocking out implements, which it now seems to me that the rules do, it means that any implement power the 1/2 elf selects will soon go obsolete due to a lagging to-hit bonus as he cannot use implements to boost it. Unless he then multi-classes into the same class he selected his dilettante power from. He doesn't have this problem for weapon based powers.

Huh. I thought there weren't supposed to be any system mastery traps in 4e?

 

[Arbitrary]

It fits the flavor of the race, the argument for is similarly convincing as the argument against, and it isn't going to hurt anything during a game.

I'm all for it.

 

[Hellzon]

On the 1/2 elf it occurs to me that in blocking out implements, which it now seems to me that the rules do, it means that any implement power the 1/2 elf selects will soon go obsolete due to a lagging to-hit bonus as he cannot use implements to boost it. Unless he then multi-classes into the same class he selected his dilettante power from. He doesn't have this problem for weapon based powers.

And dragonborn, genasi and drow get a +2 bonus to hit with their racials to compensate for not getting implement boni to their racials. Half-elves don't even get that.

RAW may say that half-elves can't use an implement to get a hit bonus to their dilettante power, but I'm not convinced it's RAI.