Half-elves in 3.5 (or: Half-elves got the shaft!)

[LuYangShih]

Dwarves get a +2 to the statistic that is valuable for every class, while a -2 that is only a major penalty if you're a Sorcerer or a Bard. Even then, not that big a deal. The bonus to Constitution more than makes up for it.

And then Dwarves get all their other massive bonuses, particularly the bonuses recieved for saving throws (+2 to on saving throws against all spells... can you say Iron Will, Great Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes all rolled into one?), and the combat bonuses. Plus the Stonecunning and Craft bonuses, and now in 3.5E they're getting even more.

Half-Elf just as good as a Human, you say? I take Human, (and let's be generous to the Half-Elf, and say I pick a class that doesn't have spot and listen as class skills), use my beginning bonus 4 skillpoints to get a +1 to Spot and Listen. It seems now I have that bonus covered. And let's take Iron Will as the bonus feat. Look, +2 to ALL Will saves, not just against enchantments. And I also get 19 more skillpoints than the Half-Elf.

The only thing the Half-Elf gets that a Human does not, following the above, is an immunity to sleep and the ability to use Elven weapons. Hardly earth shattering, I'd much rather have the skillpoints. And so would you, if you really "value flexibility", as you say.

And Half-Elves lose out even bigger against the Elven parent, who gain everything Half-Elves gain and then some. No, the Half-Elf doesn't even come close to being a mechanically viable race. And the roleplaying opportunities are no greater, either, in my opinion. Half-Elves offer nothing, mechanically or roleplaying wise, that their full blooded parents do not already possess.

 

[satori01]

Dwarves are a strong class I dont know if I would say they are broken. Detect slopes and the craft synergies are more for flavor.
The save bonuses for magic and poison in 3e are not as powerful in past editions.

I'm ok with racial familiar weapons as long as gnomes and half orcs get them as well.
The possiblility of dwarves getting 20' movement is to address the slowness of the dwarf in armor moving 15' or slower. When the dwarf is 3 rounds behind the rest of the party sometimes it causes difficulties.

Anyway for half-elves, I might argue to give them elven weapon proficencies. I think that alone would go a long way to encourage people to play them.

 

[Norfleet]

...and the ability to use Elven weapons.

Nope. No free ls/rapier/bow proficiencies. You're stuck using regular class-based and feat-purchased weapons, just like hunams.

Fact is, HE is just a useless race in 3E. Frankly, I can't say I'm terribly upset, because I've always viewed them as freaks that shouldn't rightly exist as anything but extreme aberrations in the first place. Of course, if being a freak means power, like in previous editions, I'm all for it. Normalcy is overrated, anyway. This is not one of those times.

The HE has no practical benefit to play. +skills in places that won't matter, because if you HAVE the skill, you have to bury enough ranks in it that a tiny +1 won't matter, and the +1 won't exactly grant you early access to a PrC, either, since those are by rank. Otherwise, you don't really have the skill. If you DON'T have the skill, +1 to something you can't do is still something you can't do.

Sure, it's always possible that you'll pass a save by that small hair, but it's not worth the cost of both the feat AND the skillpoints. If I really felt that strongly about it, I'd just buy the damn feat using my free hunam feat. However, I see that saving throws are all rigged, anyway, and unless it's your strong save, you're never going to pass one. Just forget about it and go look for immunity through magic, because you're wasting your time there, and the higher level you are, the larger your save penalty is on your bad save, which starts out around -2, and ends somewhere around -6.

That leaves the minor immunity. An immunity which becomes a non-issue after 4th level. If your character can't survive that long, he didn't deserve to live anyway. Life is harsh. Any character so obviously non-viable doesn't deserve to live and reproduce.

 

[Ravellion]

Nope. No free ls/rapier/bow proficiencies. You're stuck using regular class-based and feat-purchased weapons, just like hunams.

I think he was referring to the Elven blood ability. So if you have a weapon which can only b used by Elves, a half elf can use it as well. more likely a ranger will use his "Favoured enemy: elves" bonus on you than you actually finding on eof those weapons though.

Rav

 

[The_Gneech]

One of the players in my game keeps making half-elf characters, even though they get the least goodies, so there must be some appeal there somewhere.

In older editions, I often played half-elves 'cause they were the only ones allowed to have the class combos I generally wanted; now that multiclassing is easy, I go human all the way.

I'm kinda glad half-elves get the shaft, actually ... I'm in the "half--X characters should be rarities!" camp about them myself, although I do like having the half-orc around to fill the niche of the Uruk-hai type.

-The Gneech

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I still think adding -2 Str/+2 Cha to Elves, and then letting Half-Elves keep the +2 Cha goes a long way to making the Half Elf equitable, while making the Elves make more sense with the way they're presented in play.

As it stands, an Elf is as likely to have a negative Charisma modifier as a Human is... where are the 6 Cha Elven Barbarians?

 

[Li Shenron]

Since the WotC authors seemed sooooo seriously concerned about revising classes "to make them more balanced", I really wonder why they are not going to do anything to make races more balanced. I know that the chosen race doesn't have the same impact on your PC as the chosen class, but the difference between the worst and the best races is wider than the difference between the worst and the best class (and there is much more agreement around about which are the weak races than classes).

 

[Gilwen]

I have seen, at least in my groups that race is a personal preference and not necessarily one of who has the most kick ass abilities. I prefer the HE because of the lowlight vision.
I find it rediculous and flavor destroying that the HE doesn't pick up ANYTHING from the race that raised him.

I give my players that want to play half elves a choice that works well. They can either play the half elf as it is or use my modified version.

The modified version is exactly the same as the PHB race but you can choose to either gain the extra feat at first level as a human or gain the free elven weapon choices.

I have used RaceCalc, a really great tool for calculating ECLs, and this version comes out as the same final ECL as the rest of the core classes which is ECL 0.

I chose the feat over the skills because RaceCalc gave it an ECL of slightly higher than the rest of the core classes. Also skill points in my opinion are generally better than feats, but then again I am also a skill junky.

my 2cp,

Bryan

 

[heirodule]

Instead, give the half-elf a bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Gather Information checks.

Whll charisma bonuses don't make too much sense, but this makes less. Half -elves are supposed to be hated by their eleven and human communities, which would mean they'd get a pelanty on those if anything. I think in fact they probably should, and get somethign else good in return.

(I favor designating one non exclusive skill a class skill myself, because, um, they have to be self-reliant?)

 

[Merlion]

Ok first let me say, we dont know that half elves arent getting anything in 3er. That rather evasive reply from Ed stark a few weeks ago didnt really rule it out.
Personaly, in the campaign I am going to run, they will get the extra skill points. I feel they are slightly weak compared to the other races, and I also find it odd flavour wise that they get several Elven abilities but at most 1 human ability(the favored class thing) that doesnt even come into play in the groups I play in.
To those of you who say "half" races should be rarities: well maybe they should be, but as far as half elves, in DnD they never have been. Its never been stated or implied that they're terribly unusual. Lower populations than either humans or elves yes, but highly unusual, no. Now some other crosses( half celestial half dragon etc) are in fact pretty rare (at least in my experience).
I will be disapointed if Half Elves dont recieve some changes in 3er.